(content removed)
I've removed my comments from this OOC thread.
Arya, I offer you an apology, and a request at a truce and an attempt to reboot this, if you're willing. I know we were probably both at work when posting, and that is never a good place for us to have a deep discussion. I went to 11 very fast, both in and out of character. I want to explain my character's motivation and maybe we can resolve this and move forward. That's my hope. We can ask amul to delete all our comments and posts in the OCC and play threads and start over.
I've read through the prior threads for a full history of the covenant. First, Jamie plans to leave, and he has our sigils, so we're trusting that he won't backstab us. You can see it in his eyes that he wants revenge, and we're just power hungry enough to give up our sigils to take over the covenant, kinda taking a big risk, he's got a lot of power now. So when you don't offer him the same thing we do, it's kinda reasonable we might get disturbed. This is how I was RP'ing Ra'am, and you may not be aware of Jamie's intentions, OOC, but you should be able to see that Revenge is in his heart, so he may not think about our long term interests, so long as he completes his goals. AFAIK, this is consistent with what I've seen about the literary character, or at least what I've seen on the periphery of discussions about the books. I'm waiting until Martin finishes his Magnum Opus before I pick it up. I'm afraid he's old enough he might not, and I hate being left hanging! So that explains the sigil thing.
Secondly the Mercere House, sounds great, it probably is, from a game point of view. However, Magi visit them. Often. Not just Mercere, there's going to be a lot of Magi underfoot. Spies in our midsts type thing. Ra'am understand this given the events of Las Navas de Tolosa. Your offer, while Azura presumes is great fills Ra'am with deep concerns. And if Phoenix is backstabbed by Jamie, the Mercere House can up and leave and go somewhere else, while we're left holding the bag. This is really what Ra'am is thinking, and has been all along since you offered it. If you're willing to give up your sigil and trust that he won't use it, that says a lot to us, that you'd hunt him down like the scumbag he is along with us, or at least you're holding the same bag we are when his plans fall apart around him. I'm actually OK with that. If you'd made that a stipulation first, I'd have never brought up the Aegis thing, because it means you're giving up as much as we are. All my commentary subsequent to that is when we'd both gone to eleven, and I'm willing to just reboot the whole thing.
I, as a player, am very excited about this game, and the possibilities that this Mercere House brings for all kinds of stories. Ra'am however, is VERY worried that he'll get screwed, and if you don't give up as much as everyone else, he's worried that you'll do it too (can you see this as a reasonable character point of view?). He trusts Jamie because he trusts Tria, but she's a master of Intrigue who was about to kill him at one time and manipulated him here, so all things are a bit suspect in that regard. Since he's left her apprenticeship, he and Tria have become friends, but there's always that element of wariness in him about her. I've always believed that there's a high degree of SG screw potential (in a good way!) with giving up our sigils. We aren't Tremere after all, where we're all expected to be good soldiers. We're taking a risk, getting into a position of power, and giving up a great deal in return. When you called me daft, it finally became clear to me, you don't understand the great inequality between characters unless you give up your sigil and trust Jamie as much as we are.
And in the future, please, let's resolve all potential disputes OOC before posting things IC, that just makes everything go to 11 fast. We need to be our characters better angels, and I know that we can find an accord for play. I want to play with you (well Étienne wants to play with Azura), I hope you still want to play with me. I'd hate to think that something our characters could reasonably think caused us, as players to fall out. I will explain all my motivations to you, and then we sort it out OOC, and then IC.
I agree, let's do it. I am sorry I've been cranky-- I've been dealing with some nasty health problems for the last month or so, and my patience has been much less than normal.
There's a fine line between "vengeance" and "retribution." Azura is totally understanding and all about retribution, so she would probably not be disturbed about Jaime's intentions for the next Tribunal. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. That "turn the other cheek" crap is for the Jesus-worshippers 
So they may differ on their feelings on Lannister because Azura thinks Jaime's enemies have it coming.
WARNING: incoming tangent.
The literary character is incredibly complex. As a child, he's a prodigy with the sword-- a brilliant fighter, knighted at the wee age of 15 by the second greatest knight of the time-- Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. Jaime was cocky and arrogant, with a quick wit and a sharp tongue. Now, backstory-- Mad King Aerys had always coveted Tywin Lannister's wife, Joanna. Tywin was Hand of the King-- the guy who actually runs the country, while the King is just a figurehead who burns people alive for fun. Aerys always hated Tywin, so he named Jaime (Tywin's heir) to the Kingsguard-- a sworn brotherhood that takes vows of celibacy and landlessness and serves for life, their sole purpose to protect the king (and by extension, the royal line). It seemed like a great honour, but really Aerys only did it to piss off Tywin, whose lordship now has to be passed to his other son, Tyrion (an incredibly clever and literate dwarf-- and my pet Crazy Theory is that Tyrion is actually King Aerys' bastard, which would have made naming Jaime to the Kingsguard an even deeper insult to Tywin). So, Jaime could not even be proud of his accomplishment because it had nothing to do with what a badass he was. This really defines him as a man, as he essentially feels that he has something to prove, and no way to do so.
Lots of backstory snipped, but eventually people rebelled against the crazy king. After the crown prince was killed, Tywin Lannister brought his army to the gates of King's Landing. Jaime was within, protecting the king. Now, the general public's understanding of what happened is that Jaime saw his father marching on the city, and killed the king he was sworn to protect because he was a treacherous Lannister whose vows mean nothing. In reality, Jaime overheard Aerys' plans to set the entire city on fire to leave Tywin with only ashes. Jaime wrestled with his decision, and chose to kill the king in order to save thousands of innocent lives. Jaime felt that the Kingsguard served the office of the king, which meant serving the realm-- rather than serving the individual man. "I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." So now, the very people whose lives he saved by slaying the mad king, whisper behind his back and call him "Kingslayer" with disgust.
In short-- the literary character would certainly repay any injury offered himself or his family (A Lannister always pays his debts), but he does genuinely try to do the right thing, and constantly struggles to be a good man.
That said, the books are full of the best character development I've ever seen, and as a result, most of it is open to interpretation. Lots of readers have different opinions about each character, and many readers choose to interpret Jaime as being incredibly selfish, and that all of his internal monologuing is simply the justification he tells himself so he can pretend to be a good person. Amul's interpretation could be anywhere on that spectrum 
Yep, she is willing to do so. She trusts him. Maybe inappropriately so, but she does trust him. The literary character is one of my favourites of all time (I'm a little in love with someone completely fictional) so Azura is going to be a bit of a fangirl of the archmagus that is his namesake
So, from a metagame perspective, a Gifted Mercere's sigil being used to vote is only a slight to the Redcaps if it's done with her intention and knowledge. If she gives it to someone as the price of establishing a Mercer House, with the understanding that it won't be used, it's not going to alienate her house. Make her look like a patsy, maybe, but that's far preferable to the alternative.
Actually, that makes me wonder-- what would have happened if any of the players had wanted to play a Tremere, and didn't have a sigil to give?
Okay. Deal
I think it can sort out in character without retconning if Ra'am just tells her of his fears in Hebrew. It wouldn't be too rude, the others would probably just assume that they're fighting
I hope you get to feeling better soon...I know from experience how much of a strain ongoing health problems can be, not only on you but people around you.
So, you're saying I should probably check to see if my inadequate-by-my-measure county library has this book?
Seriously, though, I'm still kinda torn about reading the series (George R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice?). One the one hand, I kinda like being totally ignorant about the literary characters, in that I can approach the game-version without any preconceptions. On the other hand, I love reading good books.
I love a happy ending! 
There doesn't seem to be a whole heck lot of resemblance. The literary Jaime can't get through a single page without making a quip about how dead sexy he is, for example ...Neither can Tyrion, for that matter, though for Tyrion, it's sarcasm.
My handle, "Arya," is another character from the same books.
I think redoing the thread from Ra'am's opening offer is probably best. I sure don't want threats hanging out there. Azura threw some out at Ra'am and Jamie, and then the covenant generally. I'd like to just start over with the following positions known. I can throw out a post, and then follow from there, and amul can delete as necessary (post count doesn't matter to me)
What's being exchanged for Azura's seat on the council? I think it's an effective argument that the characters would be nervous about Azura having a different deal than them. I have no problem with Azura giving up her sigil, with the stipulation that Jamie not use it. Is that reasonable?
Next challenge is the Aegis casting with another Mercurian (who won't be of the covenant). Ra'am isn't wild about that offer,and would rather we keep that within the covenant, even if it means delaying it for a season (almost necessary because we don't have the vis). This should be a non-issue for Azura, if the covenant is paying the vis cost. She may think it's wasteful, but I'm not sure I've read anything about covenants allowing someone else (except maybe parentes) casting an Aegis on their behalf.
Cygna wouldn't have a problem with a different deal, as long as it's more or less equivalent; on the other hand, getting effectively skunked by Arya's and my Bargain rolls means that Cygna has a pretty open view of "equivalent."
My main concern with having an outsider casting the Aegis for us (both ic and ooc) is that, whoever we do have cast it will be protected by the Aegis for the next year, unless we cast a new one (and I'm not sure if a subsequent, over-writing Aegis has to be a higher level or not). Which means that it's going to have to be someone that we, quite literally, will trust with our lives. And since any Iberian magus who casts it will be an unknown quantity to everybody but Jaime (and possibly Azura). And Cygna's not sure she can trust someone like that at this point in time.
This is one reason why I don't like die rolls between PC intereaction. I've had enough bad experiences and seen enough acrimony develop that I think almost anything can be achieved better through roleplay. We are essentially equal, as far as being journeyman magi, and should deal relatively equally with each other. What is equivalent to giving up the sigil, though. I'm still not sure. Our characters are taking a big gamble. The premise is that we get to run the covenant, in exchange for sigil for votes at next Tribunal. It is conceivable between now and then his political machinations create an opportunity that screws our characters and achieves his goals better than he could've ever imagined. Would he do it? That's really what our characters are risking. Someone who doesn't share that risk, really shouldn't get equal benefit, bargain skill or no. I think it's reasonable that our characters would know this, too.
Looking at things another way: the real offer is that Jamie has been offering full council status in exchange for the sigil, to be used at Tribunal. Everyone now with full privileges has given their sigil up. So someone else comes along and Jamie now offers them a separate deal? It's not really reasonable for the other council members to relent and let that person on for Jamie's new deal. And Azura's Mercere contacts benefit Jamie a bit more than they benefit Phoenix, at the present time. In essence, Azura now needs to satisfy two different parties to get full priveleges (the sigil is automatic, we all did it, as long as the offer is equally fulfilled) Jamie has whatever price to vote yes to allow her on, and the other council members have their own separate price to allow her on to the full council. It's more "expensive" for Azura to not give up her sigil, with or without her stipulation to not vote. And it needs to be something similar to the risk we who had given up our sigils have given. I don't know what that is.
Agree about the Aegis stuff, too. What if he has tokens in his pocket leaves and gives them out to others... As far as future years, the ritual is a year long, so the next Aegis would exclude the Mercurian who helped the previous year.
Just thought of something.
Azura turns the sigil over now, and then makes a side deal (behind council's back) to get her sigil back in exchange for securing X other sigils. It solves the equal exchange between PCs problem[1]. It is also something that will demonstrate how valuable Azura finds her sigil, how much she's willing to sacrifice to ensure it is not used. Her sigil is more valuable to her, but the other characters probably don't perceive that difference.
[1] If it comes out to the rest of the council that she made this deal, and did get her sigil back there could be some repercussions. The risk of it becoming known, though, is relatively slight, if she and Jamie keep the deal to themselves. Yes, this makes her joining the council more expensive to her, relative to anyone else, but it is presumed that Jamie would try and exploit her contacts, anyway, so really, this isn't all that much more than she'd probably be doing in that regard, right?
Her pater is a Mercurian who taught her the Aegis, so I figured that was the safest route to go.
She would definitely nag about the waste, though
Eh, if anything, she could probably just spread the word about why she had to give it up for a single Tribunal; "it was best for the House because it allowed me to establish am Iberian Mercer House in the safest possible location with the most fortifications; he promised he wouldn't use it to vote and that my giving it up was just a sign of good faith, but he lied, THAT BASTARD" is a pretty damn good reason and would probably be sufficient to soothe any ruffled feathers.
And as for Jaime keeping them for subsequent years... well, nothing stopping us from keeping Arcane Connections to our physical sigils 
....Uhhh, I'm a moron. I totally forgot my build points >.<
Glad to see things are going better 
So, I think we need to fill in some council chatter. If we wait for amul it could be a while. He seems to be covered up with work (he said previously that this was one of his busiest times of the year).
If this is going to be the springboard for seasonal advancement, etc. I think we need to discuss a whole bunch of things in and out of character to get us moving.
Cygna's eyes narrow as she balls her fists tightly and clenches her jaw. [color=red]"Excuse me?" she says coldly. Those who have known her since her arrival have seen her fly off the handle in a momentary tantrum, but not seen a look of such absolute fury on her face before. [color=red]"Would you care to explain what you mean by that, Constantine Amos of Flambeau?"
[/quote]
So as I was typing up a reply to this I realized I ran into a problem with timing. I PMed Amul - but since he's busy he suggested bringing it up OOC and he'd be probably cool with whatever we decided.
So, if you read thru my background, a big chunk of it is growing up in Constantinople and living thru the sack of the Fourth Crusade in 1204. Ya see, when i wrote it, I was assuming the usual start time of 1220 - sack of 1204, travel and settle in 1205, apprenticeship for 15 years and finish in 1220.
But we're NOT in 1220 - we're in 1213. I've got to figure out some way to time-screw 7 years, or be under a different magus in Constantinople that migrated to France, or what. We can go the whole "wizard-marched/infernalist magus" and Magus Martreau adopted me after the sack, but we've already got one of those (here's Cygna!)
I could be talking about the Latin Massacre of 1180, and just add a number of years to his storyline - and he'd still have lost neighbors/friends/people during the Constantinople sack,
Or does anyone else have any ideas for me? My replies to Cygna and Azura might need to be changed...
Well, apparently, if you shift the clock back seven years, that puts you in 1195. Right smack dab in the middle of a whoooole lot of riots and uprisings and overthrowings. From 1190 to 1194, the Byzantine Empire was at war with Bulgaria (which was a lot bigger than it is today), and wasn't doing so well. Bulgaria defeated Byzantium at the Battle of Arcadiopolis in 1194, and by that time their navy was down to 30 galleys. Isaac II Angelos was overthrown while on a hunting trip in 1195, blinded and imprisoned. (This from a quick glance at the History section of The Sundered Eagle, p. 17, and cross-referencing with Wikipedia...because, you know, when you're doing a research paper, you can't go wrong with using an rpg supplement and Wikipedia as your primary sources 
)
So, lots of potential civil unrest/military hijinks to work with.
But what got Cygna's feathers in a knot was this:
See, to her, that sounds like he's putting demonic on the same side as Jew, Islam, and Christian...and she's got major issues with that.
If Amos' pater were slain during the sack of Constantinople, he could then have finished his apprenticeship under a different magus in France.
I think having him apprenticed to another Magus, perhaps a friend of Marteau's, in Constantinople makes some sense. Instead of heartstrings being pulled it could be a sense of duty to see that Nothos training continue, and then being unable to find someone who would take you on because of your restriction. You could've even been of a different House initially and it has an effect on you, especially with other Flambeau.
You could leave the Monestary stuff in, just that your master was studying at the Monestary for a time (season, year?), and that's where you were attacked by the demon and Marteau still rescued you there. Then just tweak some other things.
Yup.
Your covenant could even be hidden in the monastery, which could solve some things.
Sorry, long post. And it takes some things a bit off the council topic and gets into saga structure.
So, during the pause in action, I’ve been looking over the covenant structure, resources, etc. Phoenix is poor.
We are really book rich and vis poor. I mean, really, really poor. I can barely comprehend that 4 Magi here were able to survive on only 31 pawns of vis a year. We’re now trying to make it work with 7 now (counting Jamie). I think we’ve got some serious challenges, and these are more along the lines of saga mechanics. My biggest problem is with the Vis Grant boon and the Illusory Resources hook. I also have reservations about how diffuse our vis sources are across the Arts, which is part of the discussion related to the Vis Grant.
So the Vis Grant. Seems great, right? Everyone gets a portion of vis. However, in this case, with 7 magi (and even if you leave Jamie out, it doesn’t improve the situation) and the number of small sources available it is entirely conceivable that we could fight over who gets what type of vis. Unless we set up some massive schedule of who gets what when. That doesn’t seem at all fun to me, does it to anyone else?
The Illusory Resources Hook. As I understand it, the hook came about because amul felt he had over allocated some resources because the saga was appearing to get to be too high powered. However, he assigned that to the Vis Sources (according to the wiki). We’re already poor, with about 4.4 pawns per magus, per year. Just comparing the vis source bps to the hook, is 155 in vis source bps to 250 bps that need to get removed. While I’m not suggesting that amul intends to remove all vis sources, I am saying that losing any vis resources is going to be very bad for us.
So, I propose we drop the vis grant boon, and we drop the illusory resource hook.
If we want to keep the same number of boons and hooks, I like the idea of Hidden Resources boon (more vis sources, which we really need desperately) and Vis Salary. For a winter into spring covenant it makes sense. We have to do some amount of work to better the entire covenant before we get Vis. And at this stage, this proposed change doesn’t require any retconning.
I say all this in light of The Fixer’s IC post about scheduling resources, books, for example. I really doubt for some period of time that we’ll run into a conflict regarding two magi wanting to read the same book at the same time, it’s a problem that doesn’t exist yet, and may never exist to any serious degree. We have too much work to do otherwise. I can’t find the list I’m sure I posted previously. It was like 4 or 5 items long. We are however heavily constrained in time (based on all the things that need to be done) and really, in vis.