2.5 - OOC

You can't both complain that Azura brings nothing to the table and simultaneously whinge that she HAS the ability to bring that to the table.

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One word, people.

I hope you both manage to keep this discussion NOT personnal, and concerning the characters.
Azura and/or Ra'am may be the biggest bastard in the entire world, and act like a jerk toward the other magus, it doesn't mean Arya or Jonathan is.

So you can discuss and explain the POW of your characters, but, please, try to keep a cool head.
Thank you.

Agreed.

But has she? (not that this invalidates your previous argument, of course)
Would the house throw its weight behind a junior magi? Would it if he acted like a jerk, or if this proved dangerous to the entire house?

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No, the ability to manage the flow of information.

No, it's really not. No one would try to establish a Mercer House somewhere that they'd have no say in what decisions that affect them.

No, I didn't. "Enjoying your protection" means that when Crusaders show up shouting "Caedite eos; novit enim Dominus quisunt eius" you don't pull back the defensive line and throw the Redcaps to the wolves.

Her seat on the council should not require vastly more sacrifice than anyone else's, and your character's insistence on it is stating flat out that she is less valuable than everyone else.

True Lineages is full of stories about what happens to people who go out of their way to screw over House Mercere. If you don't want your character to be threatened with that type of retaliation, you shouldn't have your character act contrary to his nature as a vehicle to satisfy the player's objections.

Me neither.

But Azura may very well be bluffing, just like Ra'am asked an outrageous price :wink:

EDIT: the more I think about it, the more tempting I find Hiems suggestion than Azura and Ra'am certamen it out :laughing:

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Ra'am didn't say "We all contributed something in order to be here; I understand that you cannot contribute the same thing because of the traditions of your house, so what will you contribute?" If he had, he would have gotten a calm, rational response, with no vitriol or threats. Instead, what he did was lecture on how she's totally worthless, and demand that she buy membership. Given that you've already established Ra'am to make egregious social blunders, that's not too far of a stretch, but when you play your character like an asshole you have no basis for complaint out-of-character when other characters respond to him like he's an asshole.

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Then let's chalk it up to Ra'am's ignorance as to how beneficial having a Mercer House on site is, all by itself, without the very attractive side benefits she offered.

She opened up with a very good offer BECAUSE it's important to her to live somewhere it's safe to be who she is and follow the strictures of her faith. Nothing she offered was, or could have been construed, as "low-balling" unless you're metagaming. Yes, your character could spend a year to be able to do something comparable. Congratulations, the system is designed to be able to accomplish anything if you throw enough time at it. There's no way any magus would consider it a good use of his time to spend a year in a lab just to prove the player's penis size. I'm female, so you automatically win.

Azura presented a very beneficial offer. YOU chose to have your character play the stereotype by trying to squeeze to see if he could get more... despite how anachronistic it is for a Jew to try and screw over another Jew who's looking for a safe place to live and practice their faith in the 13th century. Don't EVEN play that card with me.

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Azura thought she was presenting a beneficial offer. Ra'am quickly disabused her of that notion by demonstrating he didn't find her offer as generous as she thought it was. That's the entire debate.

Yet you chose to ignore her offer to give Jaime her sigil so he can hold it hostage against her ability to garner the covenant's interests more votes elsewhere.

The only "risks" it presents is "Ra'am can get more penetration than Azura if he dedicates a year to it," which frankly is not a risk. She's already offered to spend half of every year on those specific Arts if he wants an Aegis with more penetration.

Your arguments in character strongly point to OOC butthurt, and your OOC arguments reinforce that impression.

...which goes back to "wah, i wanted to show how butch my guy is in the lab but if someone else does it first I don't get to show off." Yes, you have a 10 in Magic Theory, your penis is bigger than mine, please for the love of G-d can we move on.

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Most people who roleplay don't use their characters to act out their personal frustrations.

Azura has no chance at convincing Ra'am when "his" objections boil down to your personal desire to show off that you can crunch numbers better.

So the only question remaining is, does it come require a unanimous or a majority vote, because I am sick to death of Johnathan's attitude and would like to resume actual roleplay instead of whining and moaning about how big his lab totals are.

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It was apparent that it was personal when you had your character act in a highly implausible manner to voice your OOC frustrations at wanting the Aegis done your way.

Odd, as my character only said it once, when it was an in-character response to something which was by any and all measures highly provocative. When you take your OOC complaints and act them out IC even when it is against your character's nature and interests to do so, other characters will react to them as though their actions were indeed genuine.

No moreso than you've needled me. I personally get very annoyed when people have their characters act inconsistently so they can act out OOC biases. You, as a player, would prefer an Aegis your character provides. I understand that, but I had built my character without knowing your intentions, and at the time things were really busy for me and I didn't have the time to build a new concept that you didn't feel treaded on your toes. I am sorry that my choice of a Mercurian leaves less room for Ra'am's academic abilities to shine.

It was a highly insulting suggestion; you've already admitted to being fully aware of that.

Ra'am has no bargain skill, nor anything in his background suggesting that wheedling is in his nature. And then you are surprised that I believe your objections are personal?

Lacking the time and desire to come up with a new character to appease your ego is not inflexibility.

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NEITHER DOES YOURS. Are you daft? If your character didn't give up his sigil, in what alternate universe would he use it to vote against his covenant? If my character's sigil is used to vote, she alienates her entire House, which not only upsets her personally but also decreases her value to the covenant.

You say your character's objection is about equal sacrifices, yet both player and character continue to ignore that she offered to give up her sigil.

You say your objection is about the penetration on the Aegis, and then somehow think that a year's worth of your character's time is worth proving that point. From an in character perspective, there are points worth spending a year to make, but "Anything you can do, I can do better" probably isn't one of them unless your character is a Tytalus who has the major Pride flaw.

Giving up half of her time in perpetuity to study Aegis-related Arts to improve Penetration (since you've made that the crux of your in-character argument) is a pretty damn big sacrifice, incidentally-- and a hell of a lot more significant than the use of your sigil at one Tribunal, on votes that are in your character's best interests to make anyway.