A definitive list of major and minor foci

There are lists of canonical foci:

and

But I was wondering if we might make a thread to collect non-canon foci. would love to have a much bigger list because

a) the more foci you have, the easier you can decide whether a new one is minor or major
b) There are few virtues that define a character like a focus. Everyone has got a skilled parens, an inventive genius or the like, but a focus usually makes a character special

I will try to maintain the list in this post, once there seems to be a general agrrement on major or minor for a focus

List of new major foci:

List of new minor foci:

reflective surfaces

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ideas for discussion:

minor focus:

mirror magic
bovidae (cattle, sheep and goats)
food
children
spirits of dead wizards

Major:
ice and snow
architecture
controlling air and fire

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Swords is a canon minor focus, from HoH:MC p121. The Confraternity of Roland is all about swords, all the time.

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Minor Focus; Arms & Armour - Magi of Hermes

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I knew I shouldn’t read this thread!

I can deal with the fact that various foci are widely different in usefulness. Yet seeing a list with both MMF in swords and MMF arms and armor bugs me. Not just a superset of swords but also including something (armor) that feels like a moderately useful and thematic MMF on it’s own. I know nothing in ArM5 is really balanced or even trying to be mechanically balanced but this still hurts my logical brain.

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Tbh, I cant dont like the Focus virtues at all, as they vary so widely and offer such a huge boost its utterly mad

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I think a number of foci are quirky because that’s what the mini-cult initiating the virtue wanted/found a script for. The example for swords - sure, that should be as broad as metal weapons (Te), but the confraternity really concerns themselves with swords. They will make something else (for enough vis) but it will be out of their normal scope. It’s all the users want, if objectively weak.

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That’s a good in-game justification.

From a mechanical point of view I’d prefer that swords and similar strength was considered “correct” and arms and armor was considered way to strong for a minor focus although at the same time being too weak for a decent major focus.

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It occurs me that swords not only affects making swords, but defending against them. Raising the utility up closer to a typical minor focus.

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Though the same could be said for ‘arms and armour’, right?

I see nothing wrong with voluntarily reducing the scope of a minor focus. A maga who wants to play a very close relationship with her sword could take a sword focus, although that is strictly weaker than arms and armor.

To be able to reduce the scope of a focus, we need a yardstick to measure it against. This is not a thread for moaning how much some dislike certain canonical virtues. Nobody has to use virtues they dislike. You lead a game, you dissallow them - done.

This thread serves to create a yardstick for those who want to use the focus virtue. So please use it to suggest non-canonical foci and discuss them.

Well, my current character has a minor magical focus in the spirits of dead wizards.
I've seen a character with a major magical focus in creating or controlling air and fire.

My apologies. My initial post was meant as a one off grumble. I shouldn’t have allowed myself to get into a full side discussion of the matter.

How are we feeling about “Reflective Surfaces” as a Minor vs Major Focus? It seems minor at first glance, but can get a bit broad - covers a decent amount of the forms, if you polish ‘em hard enough.

I would allow it, as there’s a lot of things that can’t get polished to a mirror finish. I’d be tempted to allow “reflections” as a minor focus, to cover making surfaces reflective and for Imaginem spells making reflections.

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Most Foci can be stretched to wider applications if you spend the time to make it happen. Most days your wizard isn’t going to run into a lot of “reflective surfaces” – water is about it. To me, that’s Minor. Mirrors wouldn’t be all over the place in Mythic Europe; you’d have to make an effort to find one. And it’s really only going to apply to a couple forms (Terram & Aquam); no matter how hard you polish your horse it’s not going to be a “reflective surface.”

If you spend the time to highly polish a metal shield so that you can apply your Focus, that’s the same thing the Verditius with Minor Focus: Swords will be doing. And your character will be “that mirror guy”, which is sort of the point of that Virtue: it will define your character.

I don’t think that “reflective surfaces” and “reflections” would fall under the same Minor Focus. With the former you’re affecting objects; with the later you’re affecting images. Add them together and it’s an undergunned Major Focus which I’d likely be more lenient toward applications in play.

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minor?

The sky, the moon, eyes. fire, glass, ice, rain and you already mentioned water.

Could also be an imaginem breakthrough where magi learns everything is a reflective surface except one in pure black

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We’re dealing with Mythic Europe here; that’s not how reflections work for those things. The sky isn’t reflective, the moon is a source of light not a reflection of light, fire is a source of light and does not reflect it. Glass isn’t something that you’re going to frequently run into in Mythic Europe, so it’s down to forms of water large enough to reflect an image (i.e., not rain).

They are actually widespread misconceptions which is why Hermetic magic has limits toward these that could be overcome with a breakthrough.

I may have spent too much time around flames but I assure you they reflect images.

Drops of water are the same as an ocean when it comes to reflection. Just a matter of perspective… get closer or get smaller and see the reflection

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