A Whole New World

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Firstly a warning. This thread is about an alternative setting for Ars Magica that is significantly different and much more high fantasy than Ars usually is. If discussing alternate settings isn't your bag, please feel free to ignore this. I'm a big fan of the Ars Paradigm (oh, i've gone and said the sacred word) but this is something else crafted for solely my entertainment, and if i'm lucky, my players too.

Ok, so, to the matter at hand.

I've come up with a fantasy world/chronicle idea that is based on the ideas of exploration and empire building.

Basically the characters start as novices/neophytes/apprentices/squires in various orders of magi/paladins/druids/priesthoods in a rather typical fantasy D&D-esque world.

This world has been under a millenia long attack by a rather unpleasant liche who has been slowly taking more land and destroying more nations as the centuries ticked by.

The characters are from a realm protected by insanely powerful magic that wards against undead/devils/etc and via the might of its armies and the strength of its various orders has managed to hold off the foe for a few hundred years.

In the last couple of years, many of the great wards around the nation have failed and the undead armies, millions strong have swept in and decimated everything. The last city, the nations capital, a shining example of massive magical might and learning is the last city to fall. The characters are all here fighting on the walls etc.

With the city doomed (despite its strength, the forces arrayed against it are too many) the heads of the various orders make desperate plans to ensure the survival of their people. The head of the mage order reveals that through study of banned dimensional magic, his order have found 3 inhabitable worlds. They haven't had time to do anything but the most cursory of scouting on these worlds but all three have abundant plant life and can support human life.

The remaining civilians of the city, along with tiny contigents of guards (the majority holding the walls in a last ditch attempt to cover the escape) split into three groups and enter three big swirly portals taking with them the last of the cities supplies and a whole bunch of raw material.

The PC's are given learning aids (books, sentient magic items, etc) and one third of the crown jewels (Crown, scepter, orb) and sent through a portal at the head of 1000 civilians.

Behind them, the heads of the magical orders sacrifice their lives to seal the portals and cut their world off from the rest of the universe to stop the evil liche-type from following the fleeing civilians. This neatly explains why there are no powerful spellcasters/etc along with the PC's

And this is where the game really begins.

The world they land on is pleasant enough, green rolling hills, tang of sea salt on the breeze from the west, mountains far to the north and a dirty great forest to the east. South is lightly wooded rolling hills and plains.

Now, the idea is for the PC's to engage in the kind of covenant building that a new spring covenant might engage in (but with a more desperate edge to start with) and then engage in exploration of their new world, finding out about the geography, floral and fauna and about the current indigenious life forms present on the planet.

This will allow me to introduce a number of classic fantasy races (and maybe a few of my own) and happily mess with my players pre-conceptions (perhaps unconciously mimic-ing their characters own misconceptions). Civilised and pleasant goblins maybe, or warlike and xenophobic Dwarves, cannibalistic halflings (hello Dark Sun) and other forms of fun. At the same time there will be ancient ruins a plenty from advanced and magically powerful civilizations from which to learn ancient magic, recover interesting artifacts, all that jazz.

Ideally, the human refugees will hopefully (under the leadership of the PC's) learn some of the history of the world, make some alliances, meet some friends, make some enemies and eventually become more secure in a tiny new nation of their own.

I want to use the ars magica system since, in my view, its much better at long term stuff, it de-emphasizes combat (there'll be combat, but i don't want a D&D hack and slashfest type game) and it has built in rules for initiations into weird forms of magic (lost magic of the ancients, etc).

Now to my musings.

I want there to be 4 different orders of person for the players to choose their main character from.

  1. magi
  2. priests
  3. paladins
  4. druids

I want to make them all using the ars character generation rules but with more pre-assigned virtues/flaws. I also want to stick to the existing virtues and flaws as much as possible.

I also want a system of belief to replace vis for rituals by priests. i.e. they can make magic items/cast rituals/etc using the belief of their followers as a substitute for vis (which they can't use at all).

Druids i intend to be simply very heavily natured focused magi (maybe the bjornaer heartbeast and a form of elementalism but swap ignem/auram/aquam/terram for animal/auram/herbam/(terram or aquam).

Paladins would have their magic limited to touch and personal range, but recieve a magical focus on healing and enchantment of weapons and armour (i like the idea of paladins being the mage-smiths in this world). They would also receive the warrior and self confident virtues to represent their steadfastness and their martial focus. Top it off with a flaw to represent code of behaviour or vow.

Priests would have magic ranges of personal, touch, voice and arcane available to them, with arcane being for ritual spells only and no sight range at all. I'd also like some kind of belief system to replace their vis use. Lastly they'd have virtues/flaws that represent their faith as a reserve of strength/code of behaviour, similar to the paladins.

Magi would be most like the hermetic versions but i'd like some appropriate virtues flaws to make them more "mage-y". Ars lets you create any type of wizard whereas here i am aiming for more along the lines of a D&Dish wizard, bookish and intellectual. Not sure what virtues would suit.

Other ideas i had included sanctums. Similar to talismans and familiars, but instead of enchanting a animal or object to be a "part of you" you enchant a place. I've haven't thought much about this beyond the concept.

Some limits would be in place.
Priests can't have familiars
Paladins don't have sanctums
Druids don't have talismans

So, bits left to think about, what virtues/flaws should magi have? and what restrictions?

Any ideas for fine-tuning the other 3 orders are welcome as is any good ideas for situations and people/places the PC's may encounter on their new world. And any other thoughts in general.

Feel free to discuss the specifics, my intended players don't read this forum.

2

So they're all going to be magi more or less?

You're not going to adapt the Ars Goetia rules to a bunch of nature spirits for your druids?

You wouldn't consider powering up some of the methods and powers for Preists and/or Palidins?

Have you considered providing a unique set of spell parameters to each class?

3

Sounds like you've been reading (or have read) a bit of Raymond Feist :wink:

Wonderful idea though for High Fantasy :slight_smile:

4

Well, the hardest part to equal in the Ars Par... parade of concepts (:lol:), is the world. We know it already. That said, you do a great job in painting yours.

Now there's a phrase you don't hear often in Ars, much less "millions strong". And, I have to admit, that's a sad thing. :frowning:

Nothing like a target rich environment and a free-fire zone to brighten up any day. 8)

I hope you're going to RP all this. Nothing like a good villain, and this would be a beautiful hook for their ultimate Long-Long-Term goal - to return to this world, and kick some serious un-dead ass. :smiling_imp:
And nothing like suprising the Players by setting up one challenge, and then pulling the rug out from under them and giving them a whole new one. (And leave them nervous enough to prepare for the Lich to follow some day.) :wink:

Not afraid to jump in at the deep end, eh? Well... cannonball!

[rolls up sleeves...]

First, I'd strongly suggest the V/F's be realistically applicable (ie "believable") across the board. So, while some RPG's state matter-of-factly that some classes are unable to use certain weapons, or learn certain skills, I'd embrace the versatility of Ars rather than try to limit it. And to help break out of that, I'd change the names of the character types, just to break the players out of any pre-conceptions.

Magi = Archon, Adept, Theurge, Savant.
Priests = Spiritualists (who look out for the Spiritual well being of the people)
Paladins = Champions, Defenders, Knights, Chevaliers*
Druids = Naturalists (who tend to the Natural world, and it's gifts.)

(* originally, "Paladins" were "Palace Guards". The "holy fighter" association was pure RPG propoganda.)

Then, don't reinvent the wheel. I'd try to adopt as much Ars mechanics, changing the form/term only whenever possible.

Druids - just go with the natural 7 - Aquam, Aurum, Ignem, Terram, Animal, Herbem, & Vim, with one Puissant/Affinity. (They'll have some things in common, but not all.)
Must take a Focus (or a minor one free, bump to Major for +2 Virtue points?) in the general areas of Plants, Animals or an Element? (weather, etc etc)

Heartbeast - subcategory, perhaps "Nature touched" or something. An elite sub-group within the Druids.

Short Ranged Magic - like it.
Restriction, about "doing no harm", or "doing good", or something?
Limit Techniques? (No Perdo?) Limit Forms to Terram, Herbem (Or, even more, to metals, wood (not "plants),, and Corpus? Mentem (or M only on self? Creo & Mentem only with some Tech's?)

Confident - meh. That's rather personal, cloning it makes it less impressive. How do you gauge a "self-confident" paladin vs a "really self-confident" paladin? Why can't one have lost his/her confidence? (remember, the average person has NO confidence points. Enduring the 15 years of apprenticeship gives magi what they have.)

The only things they should have "in common" are from training or indoctrination. So, Warrior, certainly. (Monastic) Vows - sounds about right. Maybe improved Characteristics, to emphasize the physical/mental training? 1 of Tough/Enduring Con/Long-Winded/Lightning Reflexes/Rapid Convalescence/ (their choice). (Decide if they will all be educated, or whether this is a semi-literate society. If the latter, then get out of the habit of "sending messages", except orally.) And reduce their remaining Virtues accordingly +10 total (or so), is plenty.

For Flaws, things like Dutybound are up to the individual - there are good champions, and not so good. Let them be less than all they can be, if they really want. Makes a better story. :wink:

priests aka Spiritualists:
Sight range for those Intellego spells that use it.
Vows. At least "minor" Pious? (depends, if in your world some priests can get away without it, then some will. Don't make it mandatory for PC's if it's not for NPC's, my suggestion.)

If Spiritualists worship The God or A God, or just energize from their worshipers, measure that in terms of vis. Doesn't have to be physical, maybe it's held in vessels, or in their souls, but use the same concepts. 10 worshippers = 1 vis/month, 100 = 2, or whatever. Esentially, the congregation and ceremonies become the sources, and the larger and more often, then the more they get. Simpler = better.
Personal Vis sources?

Reserves of Strength? All of them? How... generic. Better, give them the "special magical feat" from Mythic Blood. Let them design their own "divinely inspired power".

Forms: Mentem & Corpus, Vim. Leave it at that?

Not exactly sure what you mean here. I find Ars Magi far more "bookish" than many D&D wizards, who are built by definition to go "adventuring".

Maybe "weak characteristics" would, most likely, be taken from Physical Characteristics by anyone wanting to play such. It would eliminate the "sword mage" concept, pretty much. Sheltered/Covenant Upbringing? I'd just let them go, and not worry too much about it.

Or, for any/all classes (ugh, that word), you could "double" the cost of certain skills during CharGen. That's a classic ploy that usually(?) gets the job done.

5

Interesting setting. What's the new world going to be like? Unless it's relatively unsettled/unclaimed its inhabitants probably wouldn't be too happy about this sudden "invasion".

Since your are going to use the beliefs of your people in place of vis, it might be interesting if that belief was threatened (for example, if missionaries of a native religion tried to convert people to their faith).

Also, it might be nice to have a foe from your own world. Maybe a wizard who serves the liche has managed to get through the portal somehow (maybe in disguise among the citizens who went through it?) and now he is ready to start making trouble and maybe even try to find a way to reopen the portal so that the liche can get here too.

6

Very nice setting... :smiley:
But why do you try to introduce seperate character classes? How about making the four classes you mentioned something like Houses? They have a similar philosophy and prefer a certain sytle but that is all they have in common. Still there is enough room for each member of such a House being different from his mates.
I would give each character a minor and a major virtue that is specific for the kind of training they got. Why two virtues for free? - well there is some reason why they could hold off this lich for so long... (And by the way all of them get a bunch of flaws for free as well: driven: insuring the safty of the civilians, enemy: lich king, and being foreign to a whole new world is a serious flaw for its own, IMO)
Just some suggestions...

  1. magi minor: puissant magic theory; major: elemental magic or major magical focus. damage
    They love to show off with their power and deem themselves to be the true leaders of society. Restricions on their magic are most uncommon as apprentices that have a flawed gift are usually not accepted- they enter the three other Houses.
  2. priests minor: Minor magical focus: healing; major:

Love that :stuck_out_tongue:
They are a bit creepy, seldomly leaving their temples but are really good when it comes to healing.
3) paladins minior: verditus magic, major: gentle gift
They love physical combat. Thus, they have high ability scores in different weapon profession, leadership and profession: weaponsmith. This leaves them with less time to train their arts so they might have consiberably lower scoreshere. This wil result in spells of lower lever, so most of them will be self or touch range - but not exclusively! Your association of smiths and healing seems so very well fitting I like it very much :stuck_out_tongue: ! So give them the Verditus virtue. This way they have to improve even more abilities leaving them even less time for improving their magic.
4) druids minor: Heart beast, major: Something like elemental magic but using He, An, Te and Aq instead.
They prefer the wild seeing their role in protecting it from evil (=lich).

7

Some great ideas here.

Erik:
I was thinking about making a clear division between the mage/druid and the priest/paladin classes having the first two as one system of magic, and the later two as another. The first lot simply can't share their expertise with the others (in summae for instance) as its simply not related. The first manipulate natural energies while the later channel the power of their deity.

Sadly i don't have ROP:The Divine yet so i don't know about the Ars Goetia.

How do you mean unique parameters for the different classes?

Boxer:
Never read Raymind Feist, is he one i should add to my reading list?
And thank you.

Cuchulainshound:
I certainly do intend to RP all of this, it would make for some wonderfully dramatic stuff. Especially if the PC's come fresh from the walls to lead the civilians away. Give them a nice sense of utter inevitable doom then throw them a desperate out in the form of the portals.

Totally agree with you about realistic V/F's. Thats one thing i like about Ars, no reason not to wear armour except the real reasons, such as weight, encumberance, etc.

As for re-inventing the wheel, i agree, i've no desire to make this harder than it is and would prefer to use combinations of virtues/flaws from the books as much as possible.

For Paladins, Perdo will need to stay for some good old fashion smiting effects. Likewise Mentem for the morale boosting and heroism type effects.

Perhaps self-confident was not what i was after, I'm thinking that recruits for the paladin orders would be selected not for their skill (which can be trained) but for their spirit. Squires would have to demonstrate resoluteness, perseverence and courage before being accepted for training.

I like the idea of giving them a choice of virtues to choose from to represent their physical training. I think i'll keep that.

I want to tie the paladins (and Priests) restrictions into their flaws and their magic system. Since their magic is divinely gifted, it can be divinely revoked if the priest or paladin pisses off the deity enough. So a paladin should have moral code that if he doesn't live to, he suffers real penalties (i.e. loses his "Grace")

For literacy, i envisaged this fantasy nation as being very literate, with even farmers being taught their letters by the local priest, etc.

For Priests, the idea of their magic was linked to their voice, hence no silent castings. Targets need to hear the "Word" to be affected. Haven't really worked this out with arcane range. But priestly magic should be loud, striking and manifestation of divine might into th world. Its not subtle at all.

Like the idea for divine magic. Was thinking of having followers generate certain "belief points" and trained acolytes/priests being able to generate them at a greater rate. These are then cashed in for vis equivalents. A focus to hold and maintain that reserve of belief could be some kind of shrine, relic or alter. Thus a priest with a congregations first priority should be construction of a place of worship equipped to deal with the influx of belief. For the trainer acolytes i was thinking of chanters/singers hence going back to the Word as a spoken force of the deity.

As for the Deity itself, i was going to give any priestly PC a choice of a small circle of gods that represent common pagan style areas. e.g. a War god, fertility god, law giver god, etc.

As for the bookish wizard. As an example, one of the magi in my current game is a spanish knife fighter, another a welsh longbowman. Both are excellent warriors. For this setting i would like the wizards to be more wizardly and less physical. Increasing the cost of certain skills in character gen could do it as could a physical weakness, perhaps a sacrifice they make in opening their arts, a weak body in exchange for strong magic. Hopefully from there, the lure of better magic over melee abilities will keep them on that line.

Farseer:
Love the idea about foreign missionaries. Wonderful plot device and now entered into my plots to come list.
As for the world. Settled, and at places heavily, but no humans. Even the near humans, Dwarves, halfings, etc that i may include are going to be a first for the PC's who have never seen non-humans.

As for the invasion, 1000 people in a sparsely settled area isn't too bad and i don't intend for them to be directly in other peoples land. The fun will come when they try to log the forests (and upset the forest goblin tribes living there), mine the mountains (and encounter angry dwarves) or pillage the ruins (and piss off all manner of ghosts, guardians and still living descendants).

Nice idea about a traitor. Maybe a wizard that subverts a few followers, even if its just 5 guards. Could really put the wind up the PCs, who thought they were safe. He could become a recurring thorn in their side, maybe fleeing their camp and setting up his own little undead empire somewhere to hassle them at a later date. and periodically :slight_smile:

Vetrenius ex Verditus:
Verditius magic for the paladins is perfect and i'm kicking myself i didn't come up with that earlier. And as you say, its a handy xp sink to weaken their magic by making them focus on their skills, just what i needed.

As for the classes, I want them, as i said above, to be radically different. Magi and Druids can get on ok and Priests and paladins share divine interests but really each should be a seperate order. Paladins therefore are actually a knightly order similar to the templars, Teutonics, hospitaller, etc. Whereas the magi are an intellectual body of scholars and wizards devoted to knowledge and magic. Priests would lead their various faiths and would be concerned with the wellbeing of their gods followers and with praising and doing the work of their deity. Each group would be far more distant than the hermetic houses. Indeed for paladins and priests i don't intend for them to have the Gift as such, the magic is a gift from a divine source, not something natural that is part of them.

Thanks for your replies all, most interesting. Any further comments or thoughts are most welcome.

8

Ah, intriguing, because the whole portal to another world and fleeing the great enemy is the basis of his Magician series. PM if you want a list of titles, Im not sure naming non Atlas works is either allowed or ethical here.

9

So long as the systems both are complete, and both can work with the same basic Character stats.

I've seen many, many, many, manymanymanymanymany different bright people decide "I'm going to create a magic system!" (including me.) I've never seen one finished. Of all the bright, creative and motivated RP'ers in the world and over the decades with waaaay too much time on their hands, only a handful of successful games have ever existed, and of those not every system really works well.

Adapting one to a different system has only a slightly better success rate.
:wink:

Oh, yeah! And trying IC to rescue important NPC individuals, or irreplaceable resources - oh, the humanity! :wink:

Exactly.

Rather than try to pre-define a "class", allow each Player to choose what Institution their Character joins - (or "applies to" - see below). With the Ars system, you could even make CharGen two steps - the first until "apprenticeship" ~ age 8-18, or whatever), and then once that "1st Level" character is built, they join their Institution of Choice, and gain that training.

(Hell, in theory, they'll need to decide what new Institutions and training they'll create "on the other side". Maybe they'll change, maybe they'll schism (yay!), maybe they won't.)

Just tell that to the Players, before they create their "young" characters! (Remember old D&D, where certain classes needed certain high stats? Same idea. If they don't pass, they'll be footsoldiers - let the threat hang, and they should rise to the challenge.)

That do happen.

Alternately, similar to the "requirements" for a Paladin, you play it up to the Players that any young applicant to "wizard school" had better be a standout student, or they'll be non/low-magic Scribes. Don't let them pin you down on particulars, maintain that "the system is too variable, and it's purely a judgement call on the overall character" - Players interested in that direction won't ~tend~ to create apprentice-quality young characters who have spent many Virtues/Points on the physical/combative end of the spectrum, and you'll have your scholarly magi without forcing anything.

(I'm a big believer in "organic" solutions, if possible. Set up the world, and let it self-select.)

Sounds like you may have a good handle on it, but I'll toss out the standard IE mix:
o Magical Lawgiver God (Zeus, Odin)
o Noble Warrior God (Mars, Thor)
o (Twin) Gods of Agriculture & Peasanty stuff, hunting etc (varies - Artemis & Apollo, Demeter, Diana, Skandi & Shadi)
o Lesser God as Loyal Servant to Gods (Haephestus, Baldr, Dwarves)
o Troublemaker/Trickster (Mercury, Loki)
o Goddess of Love/Womanhood/Wives to male gods (Aphrodite, Hera Freya/Frigg)

(The above are unapologetically phallocentric pantheons - I didn't invent them.)

Or a schism. Doesn't have to intend to "hurt" the main group, just doesn't agree, splits off, or foments a rebellion of one colony village, whatever. Any story like this needs one (or more?). (Make one obvious one who is not subtle - if the PC's squash that one, then the subtle ones will have learned that lesson, and proceed accordingly.)

Or, the classic Rebel who finds they have been used by the deep mole, the necromancer spy within the ranks who is looking for a way to open the gate from this side for his/her master. The Rebel meant well, and now...

And I still strongly recommend that if you want to avoid stereotypical characters, you should avoid anything that sounds like a familiar Character Class. If nothing else, stay away from terms like "Class", and focus on the Institutions that are producing these individuals. In Ars, many Companions fall into clear "roles", and yet the word "Class" rarely pops up (except out of habit, or derogatorily, perhaps.) :wink:

10

Ars Goetia is in the infernal book it involves summoning spirits, commanding spirits, flaying the magical energy from spirits to acquire power (their powers, might, slower aging, higher attributes, confidence, vis, healing, abilities and so on), and melding a spirit into yourself to make it a part of you.

There are a whole slew of new ranges durations and targets for characters with faerie magic in the core book. In the suppliments there are similar sets for Divine magic, Cthonic magic, sensory magic, Hermetic astrology, Neo Mercurian magic, and so on. I think that a great way to separate the classes if you didn't want to give them all entirely different systems would to be to give them all different sets of range durations and targets for their spells.

11

You could also set up a FIFTH 'class'. Down the road there could be a civil war over the control of the new world...Obviously, you wouldn't want the players to be included in the 'bad guys', but that could be another story...
As for the Verditius thing...Na, won't work if the person playing it is paying attention. The character will focus on his magic, then later use the magic to supplement his fighting...

12

A few thoughts just occured to me:

What happens when one of the main characters dies in the new world? Will his lineage be vanished for ever? Are there texts to guide an apprentice to become a new leader of the "House"? If losses are difficult to cope with, those senior mages back in the homeworld might have sent more than one character of each "House/Class". This could result in several competing convents in the new world.
If you refrain from "Classes" but use the same set of rules for all characters, the death of one of the characters may not end a lineage. If the druid died, some day one of the apprentices feels like he is more drawn to nature than to his lab. He learns spells suiting his kind of interest and will initiate into the mystery of the druids at some point just because he likes it more than sitting in his tower researching spells he would not like to cast. And suddenly you have a new druid

About the traitor: Maybe he was not in hiding in the beginning. He was one of the leading characters and he wasn't bad at all... But at some point the newcommers found some ruins inscribed with magical secrets. This character deceiphers them and finds powerful spells to create undead. He will suggest to use these ritals to build up an army as the human resources in this world are beginning to run low. The others might reject this idea so he secretly experiments with it. Upon discovery this leads to major friction resulting in the character fleeing them. He is persued but escapes by using a powerful ritual to become a lich himself.
Later the characters learn that the new world is not on a different place but the same spot just hundreds of years before their time. Their city populates the very spot the citadle will in many, many years. An in this time the lich's rise to power began. Are they responsible for their culture's beginning as well as for its demise? Will they try to hunt down the lich before he becomes too powerful? Have they finally succeded or did he fool them again when they destroy his body in the end.
Maybe this is more the plotline for a book and players will not follow down this path... :wink:
However, the traiter could be one of the player's minor characters (=Companion) who secretively subverts the new settlement.

13

I like the idea of having it be the same world but way back in time, that could be good. However, given the scholarly nature of the magi, they'd find too much of the history familiar.

It did make me think about the portals though. What if there weren't three worlds but 3 portals leading to different places on the same world. The magi that created the portals are new to dimensional magic (what with it being forbidden lore) so they might not know. This could leave it nice and open for the players to encounter the other "refugee settlements at some point in the future. And who knows what would have happened to them. Slaughtered? betrayed by a traitor? Assimilated into another existing realm? the possibilities for some fun shock discoveries are there.

I'm also quite fond of having a powerful NPC (i.e. another magi) who gets subverted by necromantic ideas and splits off, maybe taking a quite large group with him. This could be even better if he remains non-evil. Doubtless the PC's would then drive him to evil themselves, making for some great discoveries that the "traitor" was actually a good guy and they pushed him to evil with their intolerance.

As for what happens if one of the characters dies in the new world. That honestly hadn't occured to me. I think i might subtly encourage the players to take apprentices to rebuild their orders (in some form or another), that way if a PC dies, at least there is an apprentice. Along with the elarning aids/sentient magic items i mentioned, this could allow them to train up to full status. Might need to think about this a bit more.

Cuchulainshound, I want to make the magic systems work the same as much as possible. My players have not played ars before so it'd be a pain trying to each more than one system of magic. To the characters, their magic wouldbe totally different to the magic of the other kind (e.g. divine/natural) but mechanically OoC they should be the same. I'd prefer to vary the style of magic the way Ars does with the various V/F's that have major effects on the way the magic is used.

I'm getting the point about avoiding terms such as class. I think i'll stick to Order.

We could have several orders for each of the . I.e. Militant Knights of the Rose, Holy Order of St Bernard, Order of the Shield, Knights of the Scarlett City. All would effectively be paladin class but with fluff differences (i.e. identical character gen but different backgrounds). This would allow the players to look at a short list of orders and pick one that sounds cool rather than being told paladin, wizard, priest or druid.

I like the sound of that. Just got to come up with some more background now :smiley: