Actual play excerpt: Certamen debate at Grand Tribunal

Was going over our current saga (Rhensagan), and found this little gem on Certamen (and damn good roleplay and fantastic rolls) from actual play. Guiscard and Yaakov are the player magi.

Session #142: Grand Tribunal of 1229, Day 5:

Certamen is once again under criticism, with extra frenzy following yesterday's result. Calls that House Tremere manipulates disputes through excessive use of Certamen resurface (as is customary at tribunals). A possible reform is proposed: that Certamen should no longer be able to compel compromising decisions.

Guiscard intrigues with Quaesitor Beatrice: "This whole Certamen affair doesn't feel very democratic in the Order. It's something of a black mark, giving advantages to a particularly aggressive and expansionist House. I don't know much about this part of tribunal politics, but I'd wager that many wouldn't dare vote for such a proposal if the vote remains open and people are expected to speak honestly. If only someone were to dare suggest a secret ballot…?" (Intrigue 13). Beatrice proposes a secret ballot (instead of the open), much to House Tremere's great displeasure.

To the Grand Tribunal's surprise, the vote passes! [long term Intrigue project] It is thus decided that Certamen shall no longer be able to compel compromising decisions. Exactly what this means in practice remains unclear. However, it is made explicit that Certamen, for example, cannot be used to force cooperation with external threats (such as faeries) [with good measure in this saga].

Yaakov and Guiscard realize that the decision risks increasing the likelihood of Wizard's War being used as a blunt instrument more frequently, but that it nonetheless diminishes Tremere's influence somewhat.

Immediately following the decision, Guiscard is challenged to Certamen by Kybella ex Tytalus — one of Prima Buliste's confidants — to determine whether he truly is the "cuckoo" pulling strings from the shadows [Prima Buliste is actually his Tormenting Master]. She argues he should also be called to account for his role behind the attempted split of the Normandy and Rhine tribunals [Lotharingian Tribunal arc]. This, she argues, would be an excellent opportunity to test the new Certamen convention. The duel seems to interest the entire tribunal, and it is agreed that it shall be performed before the full forum.

Guiscard responds with biting wit: "I find it rather remarkable that such a decorated and venerable Tytalus magister would turn on someone who is practically a novice still finding his way in the world, and immediately challenge him to a magical contest in Certamen over matters that are plainly untrue. What kind of weak Tytalus sees me as a worthy conflict? How does one gain prestige when the whole affair becomes supremely embarrassing? This is nothing but a bully's way of putting someone in their place. And this is precisely what we just voted on — a golden opportunity to inaugurate this new rule in exactly the right way! Let it be said, however, that I do not in any way fear facing this formidable veteran in magical duel — it is simply a question of what is right and proper!"

Kybella: "Right and proper! You can't even spell the words, you little snake!"

Guiscard: "Better than you, evidently."

Yaakov strengthens Guiscard's position by pointing out that the Tribunal has already decided on the matters being raised. It has already spoken — though the question is certainly welcome again at the next Grand Tribunal… (Etiquette 15).

Guiscard: "I also find it rather cowardly and contemptible that my dear master, who has tormented me since childhood, sends an errand-runner in her stead. And now she tries once again to overturn a tribunal ruling in which I was made to pay a fine and the matter was declared settled." (Etiquette 15). Guiscard can see his old master maintaining composure, but seething within.

Some disorder breaks out among the assembled magi, before Prima Bilera ex Guernicus calls for order: "Given the new rules…"

Kybella thunders that she has heard Guiscard boasting of his Rego abilities — so let us put them to the test! As the challenger, she therefore selects Rego as the Technique (though Guiscard is well aware that Rego is her own area of renown).

Guiscard: "Since I accept your first choice — which you are clearly a master of — I expect equal courtesy from you in return. I have heard you are skilled in Vim, so let us see whether my modest abilities can measure up to yours. Good luck." With the knife now at his throat, Kybella grudgingly agrees.

Guiscard: Rego 21, Vim 16, Presence –1
Kybella: Rego 24, Vim 14, Presence 0, Penetration 5, Int 3

The duel is swift. After absorbing some minor punishment from Kybella's opening Rego strike, Guiscard smashes back hard with raw magical energy — Vim — [Rolled double "1s"] which she cannot resist.

Guiscard rejoices inwardly but keeps a cool and mournful expression. He walks slowly toward her as she kneels exhausted on the floor, and says quietly — yet clearly audible to all:

"Well, Kybella… I had rather expected more from you. No doubt you had unpleasant spells prepared for me, but I am above such things." He turns his back on her with arrogant composure and gives a light nod toward Buliste, who is practically breathing smoke from her ears by now. "We had barely begun and I'm not even tired..."

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Interesting readup, thank you for sharing! This is the kind of thing I like the most about this game.

I’m interested on what you mean with long term project. Do you have any kind of specific procedure for managing long term projects? If so, would you be able to share it?

Agreed! It's certainly why Ars Magica - and Pendragon - are my favorite games of all time. A key ingredient is of course having players like these, that are going all in on their characters and the setting. Now this was a smashing success, but being able to take the mistakes and the failures in a stride and as their character is just as - if not more - important.

In this particular case, it was more of a longer side-influencing thing (a few rolls, but more roleplay) rather than anything rules-structured.

However, seeing the need throughout the campaign - and Ars Magica being limited on the matter - I have been tinkering with a few options for house rules that'll fit the setting and feel.

What I want to do is provide some explicit mechanical layers for tracking vote blocs, political capital (including downtime politics), faction behaviors, long-term lobbying, spying campaigns (up to running a spy network), reputation and hermetic prestige, tribunal debates, regional influence, covenant/manorial stewardship, staff & grog loyalties, and background trading activities more like capability and accumulating resources, which can also be spent.

You may also want to look at the free "dynamic debate" subsystem for Ars Magica 4e and
Houses of Hermes: Societates, The House Tytalus chapter, includes rules for formal debating contests modeled mechanically on Certamen, used for political and House-internal struggles. These rules support one-off high-stakes arguments but still do not extend into multi-season campaigns of influence and projects.

I want to make sure this is not just numbers, but also promotes role-playing and taking into account roleplaying actions - without punishing or overly promoting based on player skill rather than character ability, after all we play rpgs to BE someone else - if you are just playing as per your own knowledge and capability, that aspect is lost.
I also want it to not be overly complicated, but significantly more than single Ability roll and handwavy.
When I have something properly written up, it will be shared.

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And they said that the last thing this game needs is more rules…

I agree with you and I have the same wants and needs. I’m 120 sessions strong on my current saga and the lack of structure would have killed me if I didn’t adapted.

You may be interested to take a peek into my articles. Even though they are in spanish, auto-translate should get you there, and I recently explained some very cool stuff I’m very proud of.

The last ones are about Progress Clocks for project management, PbtA’s Fronts for saga and adventure planning and running and three different faction systems. If you get around reading it, hit me up if you have any questions!

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