Adaptative casting

Hi fellow players

I have a question:

adaptative casting let you use the mastery score and the different specific mastery you do know to all spells using the same general guideline.

Fine, fine.
But what?

Let's take a deeper look.

Here is a character, with a few of his spells (and, yes before anything, he has flawless magic)

Now the question time:
When he will use Unravelling the fabric of (vim) at sight, level 45...

a) ... his mastery is 2+5+5+1 = 13, for a +13 to casting total, with : fastcasting, stillcasting, quietcasting, quickcasting (x5) options available
Indeed we had each "adaptative casting" spell using the same general guideline ("destroy magic"), restricted to the "specific" type of spell? (here "fabric of vim"

b) ... his mastery is 2+5+5+1+2+2+2+2+2+2 for a +25 to casting total with same options available + penetration
Indeed we had each "adaptative casting" spell, using the same general guideline ("destroy magic").

c) ... his mastery is 2 because he already masters the spell he cast, and options avaiable is quickcasting x2

d) ... his mastery is 5, because he has an adaptative casting on all spells, and we only take the mastered 5 spell into account since they are the higher mastered spell.

What do you think?

My own reading of the rules is that adaptative casting of a spell A will apply to all spells using the same general guideline (including spell X i cast), even if spell B is also applicable to a spell X) and the mastery speak about "same general guideline" and don't specify for "type of spell" (which is a special case for vim art), nor would it specify about "realm" (which is also a special case for vim art).

My own conclusion: b is the right reading.

But with the good virtue, it can be powerful (as showed in this example of a Flambeau whose only dream is to become the unbeatable champion of dimicatio).

No, it doesn't, the text says "whenever you cast the same spell at a different level"

Your example is flawed because unraveling the fabric of vim isn't the same spell at a different level then any of the other spells you have listed. The caster would need to have, for example, a mastery score in unraveling the fabric of vim as a level 10 spell and unraveling the fabric of vim as a level 30 spell.

It says you may use your master score and all of the special abilities associated with it.

So if you knew unraveling the fabric of vim at two different spell levels and you had three levels of mastery with one spell, and one of the masteries was adaptive casting you could, if you wished, use the bonus and the special abilities from the spell that has adaptive mastery on the spell that doesn't.

The text doesn't say that bonuses stack or not. I don't recall there being a prohibition from bonuses of the same type stacking in the general rules (although there could be one that I simply don't recall), so I'd say that the bonuses and abilities from multiple spells with adaptive casting mastery would stack.

I'm now thinking of how you could uses this to power up Demon's eternal oblivion if you had flawless formulaic magic. Step one invent the spell at level 1,2,3,4 &5 during the same season, step 2 spend one season each raising the mastery skill to six. Now you've gotten a bonus of 12 and six abiites. spend another two seasons learning the spell at a higher level and mastering it again and you've got + well you can see it.

I figured I would read the mastery one time again.

So the main question is "the same spell"?
S.s. if it has a different level, it's no more the same spell. So all the mastery is dead by its own redaction. So it can't be that, and we are reduced to guess.

My guess is that a spell is the same if it has the same effect . As such, same spell are a sub category of "similar spell" (which includes two kinds of spell: same base but different parameters (which, IMO, is same spell) and same parameteres and different but close base).

So, in this reading, the a) solution is the best : unravelling the fabric of vim is the same spell (at voice or at sight range) and all those mastery stack. Since he has many times "may use his mastery score", which he obviously does.

But b) only differed from that in which i considered "unravelling the fabric of XXX" as essentially being the same spell that "unravelling the fabric of YYY". In fact, only a derivation on "same spell" definition.

Any other opinion?

3 interpretations:

  • they stack (a): +13, all the masteries
  • they don't (d): +5, either the PeVi20 or the PeVi40 masteries ...
  • adaptive doesn't (e): +7, quick casting (x2) + either the PeVi20 or the PeVi40 masteries ...
    {note that I initially believed that you needed Adaptive on the cast spell to use the other bonuses}

I would say (a) and (e) have more RAW support than (d).

  1. It's the same spell, not a similar spell. So this would work with:

Unraveling the Fabric of Vim [PeVi20] and Unraveling the Fabric of Vim [PeVi30]
Ball of Abysmal Flame [CrIg35] and Ball of Abysmal Flame [CrIg40] (doing +5 more damage)

It would not work with:

Unraveling the Fabric of Vim [PeVi20] and Unraveling the Fabric of Corpus [PeVi30]

  1. It never says you add the Mastery scores. Rather, you can choose to use that Mastery score. I would never stack them. However, there is still a bit of a problem: you can conveniently pick up lots of abilities for one spell more cheaply by making a second or third version and choosing Adaptive Casting for them along with a few other Abilities. I would prefer it if they just all became a single score, lumping all the experience together and requiring Adaptive Casting as an option. But that's not what's written either.


I can see grudgingly that point.

I don't think that this holds up as good guess for rules as intended.

What you've described is pretty clearly not what would come to mind when presented with the term "same spell" meanwhile we already have the mechanic where a single text on mastery for a general level spell functions as a text for any level version of that general level spell. Furthermore the rules specifically call out that the mastery option is only available for general level spells. Using your guess, it wouldn't make sense to restrict adaptive casting from applying to things such as piercing the faerie veil/piercing the infernal veil/piercing the divine veil.

But in any case, It think that answer as I said above is very close to your option A. He can collect the bonuses as far as casting score and removal of stress dice from all of his masteries (although I wouldn't use the phrase "His mastery is") and he can use fast casting, still casting, quietcasting, quickcasting X5. There would be weirdness if he had penetration mastery or multicasting as he would only get the bonuses for the associated mastery score not for the sum of the mastery scores.

That's not a general level spell (although I can see an argument that it should be).

It says that the caster can use their mastery score "whenever he casts the same spell at a different level". While your take might make for a better game (depending if you think stacking things this way is cheesy or cool) I don't think that it's what the text says.

Fire intensity (Damage) is only increased if you increase the BASE of the spell, so it cannot be done with adaptive casting. I tried that myself IMS :smiling_imp: 8) :stuck_out_tongue: and was smacked by Jordi, my beta SG in the head with printed spell guidelines for trying to pull that off. Literally. Several times. :mrgreen:

For mastery, IMS each "unravelling" is a separate spell. They just happen to have similar spells and are bunched under the same labbel in the rulebook to save space. I guess that the OoH would have separate names for each, in fact. "Impolute Mind", "Break the Might of Hera", "Dispel the power of the Sky" or "Negate Prometheus' Gift" for some alternative names for the spells :slight_smile: If they were named as such I guess nobody would even think they were the same effect even if tmechanically they would still be the same. Same here. A mighty torrent of Water and its Animal equivalent can do the same, but nobody would even dream to say they are equal.

AC/DC- Thunderstruck

Adaptive casting may only be taken for General Spells (see HoH-TL p.99). Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) is a General spell, so far so good. It says "You may use your mastery score and all the special abilities associated with this spell whenever you cast the same spell at a different level". It is about the same general spell, not the same general guideline; that is spells using the same general guideline with the same Range, Duration and Target.

The rule that you may use, not you may add, the mastery score; thus, the mastery score for the spell is (if the player wishes) the best of all the mastery scores for that spell, not the sum of them. However, he may use any of the special abilities he has acquired at the lvels for which he has also taken adaptive casting.

Now, Unraveling the Fabric of Vim is a different spell than Unraveling the Fabric of Ignem, not the same general spell at a different level. Likewise, Unraveling the Fabric of Vim (range Sight) is a different spell (similar yes, as far as Lab bonus for familiarity are involved, but different) than Unraveling the Fabric of Vim (range Voice).

That leaves him, when casting Unraveling the Fabric of Vim, PeVi 45 (Sight), with a mastery score of 2, because he did not take adaptive casting with his lvl 40 version of the spell, the level 20 with range Voice is a different spell, and Badly Unraveling the Fabric of Vim, which may or may not count as the same spell (that's a difficult call to make) has only a mastery score of 1. That is, with option c)

First, note that General spells are only changed in such a way by increasing the Base of the spell, too. If that's your argument then Adaptive Casting works with nothing. Clearly that's not right.

Sorry to say your Storyguide didn't read everything very carefully, otherwise he/she could not logically come to that conclusion. There are General guidelines written this way, too. So that it is written this way does not make it cease to be General. Why would you write General guidelines this way sometimes? Because it's easier when you have a minimum level that is fairly high. Here's an example why: Let's say you want the minimum level to be 20 for some general spell (Personal, Individual, Momentary) that gives +1. You want 25 to produce the same thing at +2. If you were to try to write this in the other common format you would have bonus+3 is the magnitude. But then I could make a level 5 for +2. Ooops. This already happens a little bit by accident in ArM5 itself. Just look at Demon's Eternal Oblivion.


For some reason (well, fast reading at work, really) I thought the issue was with FFM. Base guideline is never a changeable parameter with FFM, so hey.


It says that the caster can use their mastery score "whenever he casts the same spell at a different level". While your take might make for a better game (depending if you think stacking things this way is cheesy or cool) I don't think that it's what the text says.
Right. It says you can use that Mastery score. Where does it say you can stack them? What in the language even suggests that anywhere? Never in the rules does it say Mastery should add to Mastery, so using another does not imply stacking in any way. The problem, as I stated, really lies in the stacking of abilities since you can use the abilities, too, as a separate part of the statement. Take two General spells, one super-powered with low penetration and one low-powered for high penetration. Master each one to 5 with Adaptive Casting each. Now each gets 8 other abilities for the cost of 150 experience. Normally getting 8 abilities for one spell would cost 180 experience. Now we get 8 for two spells for 30 less than 8 for 1 spell. That's not good. If you stack things it gets even worse. At least without stacking there is some balance.

That's why I feel you should have one Ability, which would then have to be at 9, costing 225 experience. That's still a lot cheaper than it would have been to develop both. But that's not how it works, just what I would have hoped for.


So, if I understand some of you right, because I know at mastery 5 those spells:

(and if we don't care about the fact that one is at voice and one at sight, which, for me doesn't change the fact that's the same spell)

When I cast the second: can I fast cast or not?

Because it's not obvious at all (hence the question).
I'll think again about it.

The text actually says: "may use his mastery score and all special abilities associated with this spell" and doesn't say "may use his mastery score and all special abilities associated with this spell but not the ones of the actually cast spell".

If you use a mastery score while you have already one, what in the reading prevent you from stacking them?

  • because that's the first time it would be done? not really an argument.
  • because powerful? not the only things, and a lot less than other things
  • because it's not thematic? knowing the same spells but having mastered them in two different ways, what prevent you to gather your knowledge in one spell?

In fact, i now stick to the fact that RAW seems to be a). Because: when he cast the spell, he "use" his mastery score.
What is the only way mastery is used? The core rulebook say mastery is added to casting total and reduce dice botche. (ArM5 p 86)
The core rule book say that for each score of mastery, you can have 1 option. Adaptative casting say that you can use all special abilities associated with this spell.

Mastery 1 (penetration) and 1 (fastcasting) is not far from Mastery 2 (penetration and fastcasting). The only difference lies in experience points repartition, and that's what adaptative casting is all about : spreading knowledge.

And for those who say "it doesn't stack". I would answer: yes it does. Take 3 same spells, 3 times mastered in adaptated casting, and there we have 3 mastery score which are to be used, and each options of casting which will be used to, because that's exactly what adaptative casting does, 3 times. And the fact that one spell is adaptated don't suddenly erase the fact that the two others are also.

OK, I'm back to my books. "General spells" do not need to use "General guidelines." I suppose, technically Ball of Abysmal Flame doesn't qualify, but that's just the way someone typed it. It can be if you write it differently. So here are my spells:

Ball of Christopher's Flame
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
The description is exactly the same as for Ball of Abysmal Flame, except the "+30 damage" has been changed to "+Spell Level-5 damage."

This follows the guidelines. This qualifies as a General spell in all ways and thus allows use of Adaptive Casting. Now note what happens when you write this on your character: you write "CrIg35" and "+30 damage," for example. That means on your character sheet Ball of Abysmal Flame is a General spell if we change its name to Ball of Christopher's Flame and make no other changes in it whatsoever. I really hope we aren't being that petty and can just keep the name from the book because it's cool.


Only the power level may change for it to be "General." That is basically the definition of "General" spells. Same guidelines with different parameters don't qualify. Same guidelines and parameters with different effects don't qualify. Same effects with the same parameters and a different base to adjust the power level are what qualify.

Leaving out the above issue...

Yes, you can fast cast the other one. You can use all abilities of the first for the second. It states that explicitly. You cannot use the abilities of the second with the first. I would drop the second lab mastery and make it Adaptive Casting, or maybe drop one of the Quick Casting's.

I'm going to revise/clarify my earlier statement. My problem is that they don't act as one score. I can accept that you stack their casting bonuses and their botch dice removal, but not that you can stack their scores. Why is differentiation this relevant? Let's say ExarKun drops the second Lab Mastery for Adaptive Casting and drops both Quick Casting options for Penetration and Multiple Casting. I would only allow 6 copies, adding 5 to lab totals, and a penetration multiplier of +5. That's how well you know those options. So you can't treat this as Mastery 10 for each of them. But you do get +10 to casting totals and -10 botch dice. Hopefully my thoughts are clear now.


But... but the demon might get away :frowning:

I'm sorry I read your earlier post and don't quite see how your coming to this conclusion.

Near as I can tell all Gen spells as drawn from guidelines clearly labeled in the charts as general.

I can see why you might want to call other guidelines that are similar to one another and appear in a linear progression on the charts general. The RAW however doesn't ever seem to treat them that way. (I could be wrong but I just couldn't find any examples.) Baring such examples I couldn't declare such an assumption the obvious logical choice.

You guys are totally missing out on an important modifier to stacking. What about specialties. I mean as long as your raping the rules why not throw them on the fire.

Have Examplus our Flawless caster learn ten versions of DEO levels 5-50. Take Adaptive casting as his initial ability as well as his specialization. (Note Darius draws all his specializations from what perks he's chosen.) So now with no seasons spent further improving any of the masteries our flawless caster has a +19 to his casting total. (Only nine of the ten specializations can be used at any one time. One mastery is not being used adaptively)

50 xp's later and it's a +29. Plus probably some other specials tacked on for fun

Not cheesy enough? OK well spell masteries are hermetic abilities right. I mean they don't suffer the same learning penalties as supernatural abilities. So since their not supernatural abilities they are subject to my favorite cheese of them all, Sympathy Traits, and Sympathy traits act just like extra tasty specialties.

So if old Examplus above happened to have a sympathy trait in smiting or demons at say +5. He would have a +60 (+70 after 50xp) to his casting roll. Don't go saying sympathy traits are not cumulative I know they aren't. This isn't multiple sympathy traits accumulating on one ability like the no no example. This is a single trait being applied to several different abilities at once. Thats perfectly not expressly prohibited in the rules. Just like stacking masteries. :smiley:

With a little work Examplus could easily approach +100 with a good amount of multicasts (around 8 or 80 depending on your interpretations) and an equally impressive penetration total. In short might 200 demons should they exist tiptoe in this Magus's presence. If this caster also happens to have a healthy hierarchy score and takes Apotropaic mastery, well if in your saga you made the mistake of stating out Satan I'll be sending lilies to his memorial service.

You are trying to determine a rule from the examples. Unfortunately that is inductive reasoning, and in this case it falls prey to the potential problems of inductive reasoning. I went a safer route. I didn't bother with the examples. I looked at the definition. The definition says nothing about General guidelines. All the ArM5 examples fit the definition, and so does my example.


Adaptive Casting is a Mercurian thing. It's meant to be used with spells like Wizard's Communion that magi learn at different levels, to allow them to re-use their mastery expertise from the lower level versions. (Mercurians get them automatically whenever they learn a new Ritual.) The way to use it is to put all of your mastery experience into the lower level spell's mastery ability, and take Adaptive Casting with one of your special abilities. Then you don't have to put experience into the higher level versions, because you can use the mastery score and special abilities of the one version you have Adaptive Casting with. The magus knows how to cast that mastered spell really well, and so he can cast a higher level version of that spell as if he was casting the lower version, as far as mastery goes. As I intended it, you just use that one spell's score; it doesn't stack, and it only works with spells that have a General guideline, though as a GM I would be flexible with allowing players to design more General spells to take advantage of it. Also, I wouldn't count Unraveling the Fabric of Vim and Unraveling the Fabric of Ignem as the same spell.