Advice on building a "Spirit Necromancer"? (Virtues, Art Scores, etc?)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
5

As long as you have some talents the House can make use of and/or are willing to operate within the House hierarchy, there is certainly a place for him in House Tremere. If memory serves, the House is more concerned about you have lesser control over yourself and magic (Fury, Painful Magic, stuff like that) than you not being the most ideal soldier archetype.

Generally, I'd say go for Minor Magical Focus (Ghosts) if Spiritual Necromancy is what you're after. Unless you're willing to pursue some Spirit mysteries, the Major Focus in Necromancy would be a hefty investment. Could always go about creating flesh/bone golems and binding spirits into them? Also, can't have Gentle Gift AND a Major Focus, as they are both Major Hermetic Virtues. Also, I would take the Leadworker Virtue. Very good for any self respecting Necromancers! Fixed arcane connections galore!

Vim is always good to have, but for your focus, Mentem covers most of what you'll need for spirits; summoning, banishing, warding, binding,. Animal would be extra useful if you were to go with Necromancy focus, I believe. Should be applicable to animating Animal Corpses, but again, we're trying to stick to the spiritual side of things.

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6

First things first. Hi, and welcome! :slight_smile:

Second things second: What books do you have access to, and how complicated do you want to your first character design to be?

That's because that's all you really need. Everything else just makes things easier/spicier.

I firmly believe that you can make a cool necromancer concept from every house, though maybe the Criamon gets a little unconventional.

  • Bjornear? has a canine or jackal as a Heartbeast, digs up bones and talks to the spirits of those they used to belong to.
  • Bonisagus? A researcher simply fascinated by the knowledge of ages past.
  • Guernicus? Dead Men Do Tell Tales, as it happens...

etc

... that's because it kinda is ...

You don't have to, but it'll make life easier.
I have to admit, I regretted taking Major Focus (Necromancy) on my last necromancer. It made things too easy I felt. But I'll admit it wasn't my first character either.

If you have TMRE (aka Mysteries), maybe have a look at Potent Magic? And yes, you can have both a magical focus and Potent magic that covers the same field of expertise.

Meh. I wouldn't, but it's all about how much of a specialist you want to be. Thing is, for almost every Virtue, my answer to "Is it any good?" would have to be "Depends on your group and your saga."
If you can find other Virtues you like, go for it!

Works for me! :smiley:

My Troupe pretty strictly follow the recommendation on p. 32 about not spending more than 55 XPs in any single Art right out of Gauntlet. It can be really useful to have more than one trick - to fall back on. Then again, if you want to really emphasize specialization as a personality trait, go for it!

My last necromancer used Intelligo (lots of uses! And everybody loves Whispers Through the Black Gate (InCo(Me) 15, ArM5, p. 130) and Terram (makes it easier to dig up the dead ya know).
He later picked up Creo (for a number of reasons) and Vim for Wards and defence against the various odd critters haunting the same graveyards as him.

It's not an Art, but you'll probably also want to throw some XPs after Penetration, since most (read: ALL) pre-existing ghost will have some form of Might score that you'll need to penetrate to affect them.

Vim can be really useful for a Necromancer. Especially since you'll likely be messing a lot with Arcane Connections anyway.

Look at the above posts. And if you need more, come and ask for more.
We can give you literally pages of advice and old 'war stories' I'm sure, seeing how 'Necromancer' is a classic concept.

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7

Everyone has really good ideas and I won't be too repetitive.

  • Any house can be a necromancer, but Tremere are a classic. Tytalus have a history towards general spirit molestation too, IIRC. Boisagus like studying all sorts of things.
  • Your primary arts are going to be Mentem and Rego, but with a bunch of Rego you can do a bunch of cool effects without focusing too hard, when spirits aren't around: Short range teleports, telekinetic stuff, freezing water, and crafting.
  • If you want to specialize in Mentem more instead of Rego, you're also a great social mage. A little Perdo Mentem helps you get away with grave robbing, and Mentem will go well with your Gentle Gift idea.
  • You can also consider aiming for a Muto Mentem effect to manifest your spirits physically.
  • I think as a new player, Mentor can be a great addition to your story.
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8

Hmm, well folks, this seems an interesting "challenge":

Give the full stats of a fun-to-play starting spiritual necromancer PC, using only the corebook, but leaving room for growth (both in terms of the PC becoming more skilled and powerful, and the troupe expanding into different supplements).

I think seeing concrete examples would help a starting player more than abstract advice. Who's willing to give it a try? It would be fun to have one per House (well, maybe two for House Bonisagus, one per branch).

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Nobody mentioned that Tremere's Magical Focus is locked in?

Don't let that stop you if it's the flavor you want though.

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Here's a vulture spirit necromancer.

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The OP mentioned that the SG agreed to have Skilled Parens as the Tremere House Virtue, which is a reasonable house rule.

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Oh hey I did this recently:

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13

You are right, I missed the insert for Virtues and Flaws in the corebook. I guess I'll drop Gentle Gift - after all, if I'm going to be digging graves for stuff, I might be as well as embrace the dislike.

Also, is "higher-level" considered to be level 20+? So....in general, level 40-50 spells right out of gauntlet is considered to be hyper-specialized/munchkin-ism?

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Thanks for all the detailed answers; I would've been lost in character creation without all the advice, still trying to figure out on my own if X was better than Y!

I failed to mention that we only have the core book for now; maybe, when after we start playing a couple more sessions, we'll buy more books - (probably Covenants and Houses of Hermes: True Lineages, as suggested by Redcap) but for now, only the stuff in the core book is available.

That being said, is it possible to just take 9 virtues/9 flaws at character creation, and once later I have Houses of Hermes: True Lineages, have a story focused around getting the Leadworker Virtue (with a minor flaw to balance it out)?

I guess I'll take Major Magical Focus (Necromancy), simply because I haven't played yet and a lot of the virtues that have to do with spontaenous casting (or casting in general) seem a bit abstract.

Virtues: Major Magical Focus (Necromancy), Ghostly Warder, Affinity with Rego, Affinity with Mentem, Second Sight, ("Space" for Leadworker, although Unaging sounds nice....)

Flaws: Susceptibility to Divine Power, Infamous Master, Favors(Sodales - hopefully that also explains the Skilled Parens Virtue thematically), Driven(Make Necromancy less Suspecious), Reclusive, Hunchback.

For the above, would having Infamous Master & Favours (Sodales) be a really bad idea - like, "Oh, expect to get challenged to certamen once in a year because your sodales pissed someone" - tier? I felt that it could lead to a potential story hook, although if it gives too much headaches, I might change it to something else.
Also, are there any interesting Hermetic Flaws? I intentionally only took minor flaws since I was worried about picking a flaw and then later realizing it prevented me from doing this cool thing X.

Now that I look at the Virtues & Flaws list, I wonder how do people ever finish character creation - I still have a ton of virtues I want to get, like a toddler in a candy shop.

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15

Here's for inspiration a classical Tremere "Ghost" Necromancer just out of gauntlet, with a lot of potential for further development.

Crispinus

Covenant: Triamore

Characteristics: Int +3 (Learned), Per +1 (Watchful), Pre +1 (Handsome), Com ‑1 (Taciturn), Str ‑2 (Delicate), Sta +1 (Tenacious), Dex +1 (Deft), Qik +1 (Quick Reflexes)

Size: 0

Age: 24 (24), Height: 168 cm, Weight: 52 kg, Gender: Male

Decrepitude: 0

Warping Score: 0 (0)

Confidence: 1 (3)

Virtues and Flaws: Hermetic Magus, Flawless Magic (Study Totals: Doubled for spell mastery), Cautious Sorcerer (Bonus: Three fewer botch dice casting spells or in lab), Inventive Genius (Invent Lab Totals: +3), Leadworker [Pentration Bonuses: +2: Katadesmos tablet inscribed with the name of a victim; +2: Kolossos representation; +3: Kolossos constructed with a sympathetic connection from the body of the victim imbedded in it], Skilled Parens, Affinity with Rego, Affinity with Creo, Minor Magical Focus (Certamen)*, Second Sight, The Gift, Driven (Excel at Discoveries), Favors (Quaesitores), Ability Block (Martial), Weak Enchanter, Cabal Legacy: Disciples of the Worm, Seeker

Personality Traits: Authoritarian +2, Brave +2, Driven +3, Inquisitive +2

Combat:

Dodge: Init: +1, Attack ‑‑, Defense +2, Damage ‑‑

Fist: Init: +1, Attack +2, Defense +2, Damage ‑2

Kick: Init: +0, Attack +2, Defense +1, Damage +1

Dagger: Init: +1, Attack +5, Defense +3, Damage +1

Soak: +1

Fatigue levels: OK, 0, ‑1, ‑3, ‑5, Unconscious

Wound Penalties: ‑1 (1‑5), ‑3 (6‑10), ‑5 (11‑15), Incapacitated (16‑20), Dead (21+)

Abilities: Art of Memory 1 (Stories), Medicine 1 (Physician), Latin 4 (Hermetic Usage), Artes Liberales 1 (Dialectics), Code of Hermes 1 (Certamen), Finesse 1 (Precision), Magic Theory 4 (Invent Spells), Parma Magica 1 (Ignem), Penetration 1 (Rego), Disciples of the Worm Lore 1 (Initiate Others), Magic Lore 1 (Ghosts), Chirurgy 1 (Bind Wounds), Concentration 1 (Casting Spells), Etiquette 1 (Magi), Folk Ken 1 (Magi), Guile 3 (Fast Talk), Athletics 1 (Running), Brawl 1 (Dagger), Low German 5 (Saxon), Order of Hermes Lore 1 (Tremere), Scribe 1 (Copying), Second Sight 4 (Ghosts)

Arts: Cr 9, In 0, Mu 0, Pe 0, Re 9, An 5, Aq 5, Au 5, Co 5, He 5, Ig 5, Im 0, Me 5, Te 5, Vi 5

Equipment: Small bronze weight containing 1 Pawn of raw Vim vis

Encumbrance: 0 (0)

Spells Known:

Circling Winds of Protection (Cr(Re)Au 20) +16, Mastery 1 (fast casting)

Purification of the Festering Wounds (CrCo 20) +16, Mastery 1 (imperturbable casting)

Pilum of Fire (CrIg 20) +17, Mastery 2 (multiple casting, stalwart casting)

The Far‑Speaking Voice (CrMe 20) +16, Mastery 1 (still casting)

Revealed Flaws of Mortal Flesh (InCo 10) +7, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)

Scales of the Magical Weight (InVi 5) +7, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)

Sense the Nature of Vis (InVi 5) +7, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)

Curse of the Unruly Tongue (ReCo 5) +16, Mastery 1 (fast casting)

Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand (ReCo 5) +16, Mastery 1 (fast casting)

Aura of Rightful Authority (ReMe 20) +16, Mastery 1 (still casting)

Coerce the Spirits of the Night (ReMe 20) +16, Mastery 1 (penetration)

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16

One Tech/Form with 10+10 is a reasonable target for a specialist straight from gauntlet. With affinities you can go higher.

My general advice is to identify the high-level spells you need to make your concept feel playable and useful for the first story. It is not very rewarding to start playing without being able to do what you wanted to do. Once you have your high-level spells, you know how high your arts have to be.

In my experience spirit magic is hard to pull off. You need to be able to both see, summon, and control the spirits. Ghost necromancy is a little easier, because you can exhume arcane connections, but it is still the case that you cannot just magically control them. Necromancers and spirit masters depend on bargaining or intimidation to get what they want, and you had better read the details of every stage to avoid disappointment, and possibly talk through the mechanics with your troupe to make sure that you will be able to do what you think you can.

I would not worry about secondary spells and abilities until you have a playable core for your main concept.

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For a starting character spells of level 20+ could be considered "higher-level". There is no strict cut-off line for what is considered high-level and what is not.

To start with level 40+ spells does require a fair amount of specialization. I wouldn't call it munchkin - I mean all magi can be considered munchkin compared to non-magi - but it is often a bit too specialized where a slightly broader base would be better.

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While you don't have to get 10 points of flaws, or spend all the points from flaws on virtues during character creation, you can't do it afterwards.

Once play starts you no longer need to balance virtues with flaws, and while it is possible to get new virtues and flaws during play it is not easy and generally something that takes quite a lot of stories and/or (in-game) time to achieve.

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If you want/need the ability to add something like Leadworker later, you could always take the Virtue "Latent Magical Ability" now.

20

To me, when I talked about high-level spells, it is whatever makes the magus come across as a powerful wizard in his area of expertise. For some magi this is pilum of fire or coerce the spirit of the night which both are level 20. For a generalist this may be the limit of what they may learn from start.

For a specialist, I would call level 20 only mid-level. Even level 25 does not require much specialisation. If you specialise without a magic focus, you can get to level 35 (e.g. incantation of lightning) without being particularly abusive. With a magic focus you can add at least ten levels, and get to 45 without trying very hard.
There is a L40 ReMe ritual which would make sense to take with a focus in ghosts. I would not call it munchkin; it is just specialisation. Why take a focus if you don't use it?

So, I agree with @ErikT , there are no hard limits. It depends on how much you specialise.

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Chaotic might explain the Infamous, since you prolly got it from your spont-free parens.
Difficult Spont means you cannot divide by 5, you might find a way to have spirits deal with those.
Deficient Creo might also work.

Remember, the real fun is working around your limitations. What tools will you invent in the lab?

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Hello @CornWhiskerTea and welcome to the forum! :slight_smile:

Playing a spirit themed mage is a great fun - I can tell you from first hand.
My character now is a Bonisagus who had some experience with spirits and the Infernal. After those factors he seriously reconsidered his worldview and his concept about what is true power.
Based on my understanding of this spiritmaster style of characters you should consider the following factors:

  • Main path of magic AKA Prime Arts: For spirits in general Vim is the winner. You can affect different spirits (including ghosts) based on their respective Realm. Downside is that you need Form specific spells to affect ghost from different Realm (But maybe it is wise not to affect Infernal or Divine ghosts :stuck_out_tongue: )
    Rego is also on the top - you can summon and command spirits and defend yourself against them. You can also cast the AotH which is a nice card in your sleeves when the Council of Mages negotiates the 1 season of work.
  • Potential for growth: When you build a character you try to be as strong as you can. But if you consider a couple of following sessions you could easily realize that you can quickly reach a level of Te+Fo which is more than enough. Maybe it is better to have only 10+8 lvls in your Prime Te+Fo combination. Usually that is enough for most of the spells you will need. This way you will have som spare XP for secondary Arts.
  • Alternate paths of magic: Imagine that you reached the desired level in your Prime Te+Fo combination. What is next? Which Art could be useful? Spend your extra XP on those Arts at start already.
  • Your attitude toward ghosts and spirits in general: If you are bossy then use Rego. If you want to build a reciprocal relationship then use Intellego (hear or see them) or Muto (make them audible) to bargain with spirits.

Life Boost is a fantastic minor Virtue

Flexible Formulaic Magic is also great (you need fewer spell to have great versatility, variable Range is extremely useful: you can have the same spell with Touch range used with Intangible Tunnel-like effects and with Voice range against spirits)

Magical Focus is overrated if you don't need killer Penetration totals.
Anyway, you will need AC to summon the spirits which you can use with Penetration Ability to generate high Penetration NOT only regarding your focus, but in any situation. So use Puissant Penetration instead of Magical Focus.

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Okay, one advice I've seen a couple times in this thread was that "Vim is good for Spirits". But when I look at the core ArM5 book, I can only find that with Perdo Vim, you can "Reduce a target’s Might Score by the level of the spell + 10, as long as the spell penetrates the creature’s resistance." , and that with Rego Vim, you can theoretically conjure and control demons.

Is there something that I'm missing? Sure, finding a faerie or a magic spirit and then threatening to blast it to smithereens unless he/she/it follows my instructions sounds okay for a bargaining tactic, but is there something akin to Rego Mentem spells for Ghosts with Vim that I'm missing? Or do I just need to embrace the "Do as I say, or I blast your vis into bits" act?

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Magical Focus is godsent for lab totals though. That extra 10 points might shave a season off.

And check http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/ArM5Guidelines.pdf

  • sense a Might 30 creature
  • control an Airy Spirit
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