Advice on V&F Choices

I'm drafting some simple advice on choosing from the overwhelming number of Virtues and Flaws. (Drafting for what? Don't ask so many questions…)

Comments on the following draft welcome.

There are a lot of Virtues and Flaws described in this chapter, and reading through all of them before creating your first character is probably too much work. You can just use the samples given in the character creation chapter to start with, but at some point you will want to create your own character. If you are playing with an experienced troupe, you can ask them for guidance. If not, some suggestions follow.

First, remember that you do not have to take the maximum number of allowed Flaws and Virtues, or, indeed, any at all.

When choosing Virtues, Puissant and Affinity are good, flexible choices, and make your character better at the main thing that they do. They are about equal in effect, but Puissant is better early in a saga, while Affinity comes into its own in a saga that lasts for decades of game time.

It is worth looking at Story and Personality Flaws, as these make the game more engaging and enjoyable for you by telling the rest of the troupe what sort of stories you want to experience with the character. They do not hinder your character, but rather get them involved in enjoyable plots. Read over the names in the lists, later, and look up the ones that sound appealing. (In the main lists of Virtues and Flaws, all the Flaws are in alphabetical order, and are not divided by type.)

Every character needs a social status. This is decided in advance for your magus character — it must be Hermetic Magus — and Covenfolk is a good default choice for any other character, as it makes them an ordinary member of the covenant. On the other hand, your character concept may strongly suggest that a different social status would be appropriate. If you want your character to have a particular social position, you may need to take a particular social status, so it would be a good idea to read through the lists to see whether the position you want is mentioned. Priest and Knight are both Social Status Virtues, for example, but you could be a pious individual without being a priest, and a mounted warrior in armor without being a knight.

Supernatural Virtues and Flaws can be ignored unless your concept is for a character with some sort of supernatural power.

It is a good idea to just read through the list of names of General Virtues and Flaws, or Hermetic Virtues and Flaws for a magus, and then look up ones that sound interesting. No character concept requires any particular Virtue or Flaw, as discussed in the nearby sidebar, so you do not need to worry about missing anything essential. Some of the Virtues and Flaws look very specialized because they are; there is a whole suite of Virtues for people who have studied at medieval universities, for example. You do not need to worry about those Virtues and Flaws unless your saga takes you to those areas.

Fast Virtue and Flaw Picks

Social status is either Hermetic Magus (for a magus character) or Covenfolk (for anyone else).

Fastest: Take one Minor Personality Flaw to reflect the way you want to play the character. Take Puissant Art (for a magus) or Puissant Ability (for any other character), and apply it to your character’s specialty.

Fast: Take one Major Personality or Story Flaw to reflect the sorts of stories you want you character to be involved in. Take Puissant Art and Affinity with Art (for a magus) or Puissant Ability and Affinity with Ability (for any other character), and apply them both to your character’s main specialty. Take Puissant Art (for a magus) or Puissant Ability (for any other character), and apply it to your character’s most important secondary focus. For a magus, it is best to end up with one Puissant Technique, and one Puissant Form.

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I would rephrase some of Affinity v. Puissant. With Arts they match up very nearly at 16 v. 13+3. It could shift a little from there, but let's just use that for simplicity. Let's look at the sample Flambeau from the core book, straight out of apprenticeship with 12+3 in is primary Art. And that Flambeau isn't a particularly strong build or anything. Affinity with (Art) tends to beat out Puissant with (Art) relatively early, early enough that it's trivial to do it coming right out of gauntlet.

I think this is closer to the truth. You could add: "for ease of play, you may ignore Affinity and only use Puissant."

One thing I have figured out about retcon: your saga isn't telling what actually happened, but the myth that survived 100 years later. There will be inconsistencies. It's important to make feet-wetters realize that they aren't stuck with their choices and can refine their character later.

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It is impossible to tell how the text will work without knowing what else you write. More text on top of the existing chapter is not necessarily useful. Some of us are slow readers and easily lost in prose.

Imagining how I read rules for new systems which I do not know, there are a couple of things which are likely not to work for me.

  • I think you overdo it. Having seen the templates earlier in the book, a character with one flaw/virtue point will feel incomplete even to new players.
  • I think you use too many words to say rather little.
  • Prose is rarely useful. Tables and bulleted lists are.

As I said, any or all of this may turn out unfair when we see the new text in its entirety, so they can only be read as premonitions.

More importantly, many new players are going to need warrior for their first non-magus concept, and many of the others will need educated. Attention has to be drawn to restricted abilities at an early stage.

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Move the bit on Social Status being required to the beginning.
It is mandatory, do not hide it somewhere in a wall of text.

This maybe? Maybe a note that these are not exclusive - they can be combined for a truly focused specialist?

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Good points all around.

So, what so we have?

Flaw advice (aside from the mandatory hermetic flaw) should be similar for everyone.
Then we could have something like:

  1. Magus
    Take Social Status: Hermetic Magus
    Choose one art. Take Puissant and Affinity with it
    Choose another art. Take puissant in it
    Optional: Chose a minor magical focus (IMO, these add flavor to characters and make it easy on new players)

  2. Combatant
    Take Social Status: Covenfolk, save if your character concept requires another status (such as landed knight)
    Take Warrior
    Take Puissant, Affinity and Cautious with () in a Martial ability

  3. Scholar
    Take Social Status: Covenfolk, save if your character concept requires another status
    Take Educated or Clerk, and Arcane Lore
    Take either Puissant in 3 Academic / Arcane abilities, or Affinity + Puissant + Cautious with () in one Academic / Arcane ability

  4. Social character
    Take Social Status: Covenfolk, save if your character concept requires another status
    Take one of Social Contacts, Piercing Gaze, Venus's Blessing or Gossip
    Take Puissant in 3 social abilities

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For social: I would add "Well travelled" onto the recommended list of virtues to look at

Bob

Since at least one Hermetic Flaw is mandatory for every magus I'd add some consideration about them, mostly to drive new players away from flaws that take a heavy toll on spellcasting (it's no fun to play a magus that can't cast spells) or require a better understanding of mechanics.

Painful Magic, Poor Formulaic Magic, anything affecting spontaneous casting and Waster of Vis are things that I personally would stay away (and I try to steer new players away from), but I'm not sure if there is a list of "Flaws universally accepted to be bad for new players".

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OK, big revision, with thanks to everyone. You should be able to see the influence of your comments without looking too hard. Further comments welcome.

There are a lot of Virtues and Flaws described in this chapter, and reading through all of them before creating your first character is probably too much work. Here are some suggestions to get you started if you do not want to use the samples from the character creation chapter.

Grogs: Take a Minor Personality Flaw that reflects how you want to play the character. Social Status is Covenfolk. Take Warrior for a grog who fights, Educated for a grog who is educated, Arcane Lore for a grog who knows about the supernatural, and Puissant Ability in the character’s specialty for any other type of character.

All Companions: Take a Major Personality or Story Flaw that reflects the types of stories you want your character to be involved in. Social Status is Covenfolk.

Martial Companions: Take Warrior, and Puissant and Affinity with the same Martial Ability.

Learned Companions: Take Educated, and either Puissant with two Academic Abilities, or Puissant and Affinity with the same Academic Ability.

Social Companions: Take any one of Gossip, Piercing Gaze, Social Contacts, Well-Traveled, or Venus Blessing. Take Puissant with two Social Abilities.

Magical Companion: Take one Minor Supernatural Virtue that grants a Supernatural Ability, and Puissant and Affinity with that Ability.

Magus: Take a Major Personality or Story Flaw that reflects the types of stories you want your character to be involved in, and Deficient Form in a Form that you are not interested in. Choose a Minor Magical Focus that does not rely on your Deficient Form. Choose one Technique that overlaps with your Minor Magical Focus, and take Puissant and Affinity in it. Choose one Form that overlaps with your Minor Magical Focus, and take Puissant in it.

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I agree, I would just suggest that for the magus, the recommendation be of two flaws: one major and one minor flaw, with one to be to be chosen from story and the other as personality, based on the kind of desired story. And maybe major rather than minor magical focus.

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Magister in Artibus.

The magus has to have a Hermetic Flaw, and this guideline should be really simple. Adding a Minor Personality Flaw is straightforward if the player wants to. (And Minor Story Flaws are a bit complicated.)

It's a Social Status as well as giving the bonus XP and Ability access, and is tied in to the background, so it isn't really suitable for this sort of really basic starting point.

I like this recommendation (and it mirrors my standard procedure for char generation). If it could make it to the final text it would be nice.

The same for this one. The key concepts (no virtue or flaw is mandatory; some are very specialized, don't worry about them) is important, IMO.


I like the points in the new draft, but the presentation could be streamlined. Maybe a bullet list, or a table? Idk. I'll leave this for the chief editor to consider. =9

The suggestions themselves I think are good.

This is a good opportunity to rename Virtues and Flaws.

Some may remember previous threads where I have voiced an opinion, to paraphrase "How hard is it to understand flaw means a character limitation, it doesn't mean it is a bad thing?", so why am I, of all people suggesting this?

Clearly some people take the terms "Flaw" and "Virtue" to heart. Suggesting to those people to appreciate what "flaw" means in an Ars Majica context is a reasonable discussion, however, if a rewrite is happening, why not fix the problem? I suggest changing V&F to something like advantages and offsets. It seems easy to do if there is a big rewrite around V&Fs.

If it is an additional product being made, something at the start of the V&F commentary saying something like "Virtues and Flaws were the terms used in the 5th edition Ars Majica. We consider this a legacy term and prefer to use the terms Advantages and Offsets now."

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"Advantages" and "Complications"?

Slightly better.

A Flaw is what makes your character interesting because they have something to overcome. I'd rather have a term of literary significance than something that denature the meaning.

Not saying that "challenge" is the right term but it is used as the positive side of "handicap", and that's what should be aimed for.

Nevertheless, Flaw will stay as it is for this version. I think David might be open to giving a more positive explaination to the term, on how those liabilities will create stories. Something like "Virtues make things easy, while Flaws make them interesting."

No, it really isn't.

(Bear in mind that I know what the opportunity is, and you don't, yet.)

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A revised version of prose part.

There are a lot of Virtues and Flaws available in this game, and it may be difficult to decide what to choose. The first thing to remember is that you do not need to choose the maximum number of Flaws.

Every player should consider Personality Flaws, and Story Flaws for companions and magi, as these make the game more engaging and enjoyable for you by telling the rest of the troupe what sort of stories you want to experience with the character. They do not hinder your character, but rather get them involved in enjoyable plots.

Most Virtues and Flaws are not necessary for any concept, even if the name suggests that they might be. For example, a pagan character does not need to have the Pagan Flaw — the Flaw indicates that their religion creates stories or shapes their personality, and that might not be your plan for the character. This means that, in general, you can pick Virtues and Flaws that look appropriate, and do not need to worry that you have missed something vital by not checking all the others.

There are two exceptions. One is that a character must have a Virtue to buy Academic, Arcane, or Martial Abilities at character creation. Educated, Arcane Lore, and Warrior, respectively, are the easiest options, although other Virtues (and some Flaws) also grant access to some of these Abilities.

The second concerns social status. If you want your character to be a knight, with all the social standing that implies, you must take the Knight Social Status. On the other hand, you do not need that Virtue to be an armored and mounted warrior (although you would need Warrior or another Virtue that gives you access to Martial Abilities). In most cases, social status does not define the way that other members of the covenant see you, so if your character is not concerned about wider society, you do not need to worry about this.

Finally, a lot of the Virtues and Flaws are very specialized, to support particular types of character found in Mythic Europe. You can safely ignore these, until you decide that you want to play that sort of character.

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Thanks for the clarification. I'll stop now. :slight_smile:

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One Virtue that you don't have and which is extremely important for "Combat Types" is Cautious With (Ability).

This is because combat between heavily armored and skilled opponents often ends up bogging down into a "who botches first loses" situation.

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