Ars Goetia other than Summoning

Is Summoning necessary to use the other Ars Goetia Arts such as Ablation, Binding and Commanding? - the text implies that an unrestrained (ie not summoned using the Summoning power) entity is harder to affect with the other Goetic Arts (ie. double the might in order to have an effect), but it seems possible to use a Goetic Art on an entity summoned by Hermetic magic or encountered in the course of an adventure.

If my Strife Criamon apopotraic demonslayer with the Binding ability encounters a vengeful Infernal ghost, can he attempt to directly bind the unrestrained entity into himself, even though it is unsummoned and hostile?



As I see it, yes, he can try. It's just usually harder when you don't have the ability to Summon the spirits/demons in the first place, since you're limited to those you might chance upon and they won't be conveniently packaged in a circle. Although for Hermetics, ReVi/ReMe can probably do the job just as well.

Nope. It's harder (you have to double the target's Might), but this is certainly possible. The book doesn't give a range, though, does it? I'd say it's Voice for all three, since that's the Range to affect a spirit in a circle.


And how long does it take? One round? Can it be "fast-cast" for instance?



For simplicity, I'd say it takes one round and that there's no fast-casting. You'd need to check Concentration if you're interrupted while attempting the Binding (say, by the spirit attacking you with an earlier initiative).

This is related to the: "Anyone made an Infernal Summoner?" thread

Is it reasonable for a character with the Goetic Arts of Ablation, Binding, or Command (ie the ABC of Goetia...) to be unaware of the Realm association of their Goetic Art and think that it is aligned with the Faerie/Magic realm with an unholy taint rather than the Infernal realm?

eg. An Islamic spirit master (sahir) believing himself to belong to a tradition descended from teachings passed down from King Solomon has the Favoured Abilities: Second Sight, Summoning, Binding and Command which he believes are aligned to the Magic Realm. He recognises some of his traditional teachings derive from the fallen grigori Harut and Marut, but refuses to believe through Pride (Major Personality Flaw and a great Story Hook for infernal corruption) that they were anything but Magical beings, even though they were no longer Divine. In any case he believes he can command jinn, airy spirits and demons due to his Pride in his exceptional tradition...

Although his Infernal aligned Goetic Arts will be affected by Magic auras (-1 x aura instead of +1 x aura) and Divine auras (-5 x aura instead of -3 x aura), the difference might be subtle for the latter if he avoids the Dominion areas. Coupled with Cthonic Magic and the Corrupted Arts Flaw for his Summoning power, this may not seem too different for the character as it offests some of the penalties for using his powers in Infernal or Magic auras.

After all, only Divine or Infernal methods can detect the unholy taint of Summoning - a character with Summoning aligned to the Faerie realm say and no other abilities but Command would not themselves be able to tell that their Command powers stem from the Infernal.

As a precedent, RoP:tI implies that Misguided Tradition groups like the Luciferans, Benandanti (see Strigae) and Witch Hammers do not necessarily realise their powers spring from the Infernal realm IIRC.

Is this scenario best represented by the Delusion or Manufactured Ignorance Flaws? Or something else entirely?



Well, in my opinion it too good of a character idea to disallow, as long as it doesn't fly in the face of how you or the storyguide thinks the world works. I could easily see the summoned demons being DELIGHTED to insist that they are merely magical spirits, gleefully serving, teaching more powerful summoning spells, etc. All the while, they're waiting for the botch or the chance to make the "big reveal" to the summoner that his immortal soul is now forfit, and then switching the power from the summoner to the demons themselves.



Glad you like it, still it would be nice to have a sahir character that didn't have to be deluded in to thinking some of his powers weren't Infernally based!

I've been wondering if Summoning (Magic) plus Invocation (Divine) * Adjuration (Divine) would work. There's a small overlap between InvAdj summoning creatures and Summoning, but the former needs a "holy connection" to work, whereas Summoning does not. Since these can only be gained if a character has "spiritual authority" over the target entity. has established one using Purity/Adjuration or learnt the target's True Name through Merkavah, this makes a Divine spirit summoner a difficult proposition.

Invocation (or Kabballah) is also reliant on either Confidence or True Faith, however which is a bit trickier though as it severly limits a character without True Faith as they have to burn through Confidence points if they want to command anything.

I can't see all sahirs or Levantine spirit masters having True Faith though!

I've discussed this concept for a Zoroastrian magoi style summoner with Erik on the Berklist when RoP:tD came out and his point was that why summon something to do God's will on earth indirectly, when you could instead manifest his will directly through the direct effects of the Holy Power of Wonders linked to Invocation?

I think it's a good point.

Another way of achieving this for a diabolist style sahir character is to use the Infernal Maleficia correlates of the Holy Powers ie. Incantation and Diablerie, which follow the same guidelines essentially but don't require "holy connections", merely Arcane Connections. The Debauchery/Diablerie effects correspond closely to the Purity/Adjuration effects I mention above.

All this is fine for really evil NPC sahir infernalists, but I'd be thinking it's easier to take the Goetic Arts of Summoning, Commanding and Binding instead. Likewise, I can't see all sahir as diabolists!

It's ArM5 canon that Faerie and Magic Realm aligned non-Hermetic magic can't grant universal MR, so it's unlikely that having a non-Infernal version of Command would be workable unless it was sans the power to use an entity's Might as MR. In some ways it fits well to have that temptation...