Ars Magica: A bonfire of tradition (hedge saga) [4-5 players]

That's why I said "without the corresponding Flaw" since the Vow involved in the Initiation is essentially a Story Flaw. If we break it we can be Marched or gain the Enemies (Order of Hermes) Flaw.

If we don't swear it, we might still be killed - without the ceremony of marching - and have the Enemies (Order of Hermes) Flaw on top? Or did the Order without Hermetics change in this respect?

Anyway I see what you mean, and am fine with its gist. But we better do not speak of an Ordeal in the Initiation to the Parma Magica, and make it just a part of the initiation ceremony.

I think Xavi wrote up an initiation script for it either in the previous thread or one of the threads mentioned there.

I am so far not aware of that initiation script.

If you cannot find it now, no sweat. We will certainly see and discuss it while going deeper into the set-up for the saga.

No. That is me messing up with the messages using a 4 inch screen phone. My bad. Corrected the list below:

List of players and traditions (as compiled correctly by MalakhGlitch)

  • Plot_device : Vitki
  • MalakhGlitch . True Merinita (Gifted Companion). Nature Lore and nature-related magics
  • DeedNay : Alchemist (Learned Magician)
  • OneShot : Ars Notoria (Gifted Companion)
  • Callen : Summoner (Mythic Companion)
  • Darkwing : Witch.

Yes, the basic plot device is that it has been given to those weird guys in order to remove it from the social hierarchy. It is a freaking big (unfinished) castle and this puts some very big problems in the area. The Holy roman Emperor decided to award it to the magi so that the local nobility could not use it. The Emperor also turned triamore into a library of all the books that he is given at court (as gifts, most of the time), so we will have a substantial mundane library. Not all books will be good (some will be very pretty but with little value, for example) but the library is supposed to be ver big.

I ran approximate numbers, and using Covenants (5th ed) Triamore runs on a breakeven situation with 6 magi. I did the numbers on my lunch break, so I am sure the n umber is very rough. Basically I assumed:
6 magi. 4 +0 labs and 2 +2 labs (for the previous magi)
a turb of 6 grogs + 6 custos.
2 nobles
7 specialists (librarian, illuminator, horsemaster and a few others listed in the book)
Around 30 people more
8 horses

2 minor sources of income (library and village) for a total of 80 pounds of yearly income.

Maximum savings for consumables and food (IIRC).

If anyone want sto run the numbers again feel free to do it. having it as a breakeven sutuation sounds correct to me. There is a plot hook that is the fact that the lord of Namur can charge us "reasonably" for agrcultural produce. and he hates the magi and wants to evict them.

All of you not coming from covenants sounds right to having everybody starting on the same footing here. As I said, covenants are more an exception than a norm in this saga. Spread Witch covens, individual magi toiling alone, .... are more the norm. Some get to be supported by a noble and stuff like that, but this just means that their seasons of work are dedicated to said patron, not that they are free to do as they please.

Parma only for Gifted people sounds right. There might be small exceptions if one of you wants to play unGifted characters, but in that case we might substitute it for a free relic for example in order to keep consistency. Sounds good?

I have not designed an Ordela for it. I just made it a mystical ability requiring the swaring of the Code as part of the Initiation. violating the coe would require attunement, taint the parma, make you lose it, or make everybody around you aware you are an oath breaker. we don't know yet. Probably your characters do not know yet either since we as players have not considered it in full. I kust find it cooler for it to be an initiation. a minor virtue of sorts.

Maybe 25 years maximum?

Aha! Found the relevant portion of Parma and The Gift in HMRE, p.6

Of course, even if he does join the Order, an unGifted hedge wizard cannot learn Hermetic Arts, learn Parma Magica, participate in certamen, or perform any other activity that requires The Gift.

On Triamore

If those are the numbers for Triamore then we need more sources of income asap. Otherwise the whole concept of a Covenant will go down the drain and we'll all need to spend seasons making a living.

Musings on the nature of the Order

Since the Parma Magica is preserved, albeit in a lesser form (probably a Supernatural Ability) magi can once again work together in greater numbers. Due to the nature of hedge traditions membership in the Order has probably reverted to what Guernicus wanted, voluntary membership as opposed to "Join or Die." Since Certamen is not available it comes even closer to what Guernicus wanted.

However, as Guernicus also stated, there needs to be magi who enforce the Oath and Code, otherwise the Order would have failed after the last of the New Founders have passed on. This brings another problem to fore; a lot of Hedge Magic lacks the power to punch through Parma Magica. What group of magi can be the replacement for the Quasitores and what kind of magic do they wield that they can actually enforce the Oath and Code?

I like it. Voluntary membership with an advantage (Parma) and a drawback (Code) sounds about right.
Magi might lack much penetration, but they can ally with supernatural creatures tha tdo that (spirits) or rely in some traditions that laugh at Parma using brute force, like Vitki. Most magi will not be as invulnerable to MUNDANE attacks as the OoH is, so a good pointy stick or sharp item can be used as well. Sometimes the best response to a mystical problem is a mundane solution.

I just realized something, how can you create Frère Sulpice as a Mythic Companion when Ars Notoria requires The Gift?

Gifted Companion /= Mythic Companion ! Indeed, Mythic Companions typically cannot be Gifted.(see HoH:S p.104 box Mythic Companion).


D'oh! I misread that. Sorry!

Another quick remark: don't turn Parma Magica from an Arcane Ability into a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities interwork quite differently with Auras, Regios, Advancement rules, Traditions based on such advancement rules etc. Save yourself the headache and the resulting redesigns.

Requiring Gifted plus a new Mystery Virtue to learn and use the Arcane Ability Parma Magica is far easier and does what desired.

If Parma is not simply a teachable Arcane Skill perhaps the oath is self-enforcing? You break the Oath and your Parma stops working?

We could also be required to give the Quaesitores a fixed AC.

The idea for Parma is that it has 3 levels of initiation. You have been initiated in the first level, that allows you to develop the skill to level 3 max. Then a second iniatiation would allow you to develop it to 6th level, and a third initiation to level 9. The second and third initiations have their own requirements (start training an apprentice and finish training it, basically).

Making it a kind of restricted arcane ability works for me. The idea is that the Oath is important. I have not decided what happens when you flout the code willingly, so it might change from case to case. Not al twilights and magical scars are equal after all, so breaking the oath might have different (even random) occurrences associated to it.

Yes, OneShot is also correct. SG has forbidden giving Major Virtues via Grant, Succurro Magicam, etc. That would stop you from making the mistake I mentioned.

I've played a Mythic Alchemist, a spell-based Natural Magician, and a companion with Mythic Alchemy who isn't a "Mythic Alchemist." So I've spent a good deal of time looking into how a lot of this works, which is a reason I'm trying something different here.

I declare Callen our local expert in all things Natural Magician :stuck_out_tongue: Tongue in check, but the comment stands. he knows way more about this than I do for sure!

the thing about granting major supernatural virtues is that it can be easily abused. granting shapeshifter at skill 4? Touched by Realm? Mythic blood? Summoning? Beast summoning? Focus or Greater power? Transformed human...

When you open Pandora's box things can get messy IMO, since Ars Magica has a lot of supernatural virtues around. So I prefer to limit the granting of virtues. Hope you understand my point here.

Need some constructive criticism on this.

Merinitae Exsules

The Merinitae Exsules (Merinita's Exiles) are a hedge magic tradition that developed from the House Merinita magi who fled to Fenistal when Quendalon killed Myanar to become Primus. The exsules not only eschewed the Order, but also Hermetic magic. They practiced the nature magics they inherited from Merinita and eventually developed an Opening the Gift ritual that integrated the Nature Mysteries.

(Hedge Magic) Theory: Should this tradition have an extant magic theory? I am quite interested in integrating Hermetic Vericulture (LoH, p.72). If you guys think that this tradition should not have a magic theory, then I could just make one in-play.

(Organization) Lore: Merinitae Exsules Lore

Hedge Wizard Powers: Nature Lore, Awakening, Familiar, Wildling, Guardian of Nature

Warping: Locus

Whenever an exsules gains two or more Warping Points from a single event, or sufficient Warping Points to reach a new Warping Score, he must make a Locus Roll against the indicated Ease Factor. If this roll is failed, the exsules merges with the area, effectively becoming a genius loci for a duration of Moon. While he is a genius loci, the exsules may not use his supernatural powers, but can be communicated with via spirit magics. The exsules may try to reform his body once each day, by making a Locus Roll. If this is successful, his body coalesces immediately at a chosen point. If the exsules does not successfully form his body before the Moon duration ends, then he is transformed into a spirit permanently, or possibly enters the Magic Realm.
Locus Roll: Pre + Stress Die
Locus Ease Factor: 3 + Warping Score

I didn't yet read the post fully, but wish to point to GotF p.114 boxes Fenistal and Exsules quickly, which address these people.

Those versions use Hermetic Arts, though.

I really like the above, especially the warping, but I think it will be very limited in what magic it can actually do. I would suggest taking another tradition, and then creating the above as a Forest Path your character is pursuing and integrating.

Yup. Granting Major Virtues + RoP:M Major Virtues lets you do nearly anything.

About the Warping:

It is inspired apparently by the HMRE p.42f Witch Moon. I quite like the idea of merging with the surrounding area - but am still unsure what that means, if that area is e. g. a cathedral or an Infernal regio.

Using the timing and rolls from Witch Moon (which makes the merging last one or more months and makes the Locus Ease Factor: 6 + Warping Score) should otherwise improve the acceptability for the saga.