Before the Order

Hello, Everyone !

(edit on 25 october, 2024: replaced Major/ Minor Domain by Greater/ Greater Domain, just because Arm5 already has a lot of Major/ Minor. It also makes abbreviations easier)

I originally planned to submit this to Sub Rosa, but life got in the way and… Let’s just say I’m not the gamer I once was, and this is proving difficult ( and slow) to write. So, please, bear with me.

So, without further ado, I’ll just go & write. I’ve been thinking about the Origins of Magic, and what kind of Sorcery might have been practiced by the Founders I had other ideas, but they involved gods, and Angels)

The idea was, we have a rough idea of what kind of focus they had, like Fire for Flambeau, Ghosts for Guorna (Probably with a side note of Corporeal Necromancy), Stone for Guernicus… And we know that, working with them, Bonisagus invented the 15 Arts we know and love. So, there must have been some similarities between both their Magic and the Hermetic Arts.

Note the key word : Focus.

Cutting short ( And, I’ll admit, typing with 1 hand, my middle finger is beginning to ache due to the repeated strokes :smiling_face_with_tear:), I figure they had what I call Domains, both Major and Minor, either fast or slow. A Greater Domain is about as wide as a MMF, whereas a Lesser Domain has a width comparable to a mMF. Fast means they progress as an Art, Slow means they advance as Abilities. In my head cannon, they each had 1 fast GD, upgraded, with a bunch of slow LD
If we add the Platonic Forms, between all the Founder , we probably can see the outline of the Arts. Now, Bonisagus just has to observe that, Some times, both Flambeau and Guernicus created Fire or stone, elements which they also could control…
We also know Hermetic Magic has its roots in Mercurian Magic, which was big on Rituals
Unless i'm wrong, we also know that Spell Mastery has its roots in that pre-hermetic magic, so, that was probably a big component.

You get the idea ?

Now, the next (or rather, Previous) part : the Parma. IMO, Boni ( who, IMO,must have had a Major Domain in Dispelling, or something like that) used OR, experimenting with… What kind of spells ? Probably something like « Impede the Intermitent Inteloper » (TME p 109), but based on the more general"Dispel any magical effect" rather than"Dispel a specific type of enchantment" guidelines. Let’s Call it "Stop dead the hostile magics" (PeVi Gen, R: Per, D: Sun): This spell prevents the target from casting, or being affected by spells of a level less than the (level of this spell + 2 magnitudes+ stress die (no botch)).
From several iterations of that spell (and variants), He got enough Breakthrough points to invent the Parma.

So, what did the Domains cover? the 10 Hermetic forms (that's roughly about 50 possible Minor Domains, or 10 majors), obviously, but also the Amazon Arts (RM adds 15 Minor Domains) and probably also Virgilian Magic (also in RM).
How Did you learn a spell? That's what Spell Mastery is for! :smile: Let's say you improved your Mastery until (Applicable Domain+ Mastery) was higher than the spell's Magnitude.
How did spellcasting work? I figure you used Sta + twice your highest applicable Domain + Spell Mastery + Aura. This means that, yes, inside their Major Domain, founders ( and similar magi) were probably stronger than modern magi, while being at the same time less powerful outside of it. they compensated by having the first Mastery ability be Ceremonial Casting (here's your Mercurian roots! :grin:) and using Vis ( up to your Domain, for more Mercurian tie-in).

As an example of a pre-hermetic sorcerer, let's give them Stamina 0, 1 Fast Major Domain in Birds at 15, and 5 slow Minor Domains ( Healing humans, Control Fires, Destroy Demons, read thoughts, and Transform Water) at 3, with AL and Philosophiae at 5 both.
they probably know a bunch of bird-related spells at Mastery 1 or more, for which they have a CT of at least0+ 215 +1= 31. so, they can reliably cast Bird spells up to level 30-35, or 40-45 if they take the time for a little Ceremony :cowboy_hat_face:.
Outside of that, they have to rely on Ceremonial Casting to reach a CT of 0+2
3+10 + Mastery 1= 17, and their low Domain limits them to spells around the 4th magnitude anyway (level 20). 5 magnitude is possible, but they need more study (Mastery 2+) and it is harder (Ceremonial CT of 2*3+10+2 = 18 or more), probably requiring vis.... or the missing bit! Wizard's Communion! And Names of Power, let's not forget Names of Power, for more heathenry and Pageantry!

So, that's it for today. Sorry if this is too rough and I couldn't write more, but the ball's in the air, I hope you'll have fun with it.

And that bit about inventing the Parma? Developing an ability from a spell? I figure it could be done again with, for example the Pyromancer ability: you can create balls of fire, or bolts of flame, doing +5 damage per level in the ability to anything you can see with a penetration of 0. You may lower your damage by any amount, to increase your Penetration by the same amount, or affect several targets ( -5 damage per target past the first)

Besides the intellectual exercise, I figure this can give a framework for stating time lost magi (Tytalus is probably not the only one lost in a slow time regio) or playing in a "before the OoH" saga. This can be fun, as they'd be both weaker and more powerful than their Hermetic successors, with maybe a bunch of weird spells ( Amazon and Virgiln effects). Probably exactly as they should. :thinking:

Thanks for bearing with me :grinning:

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An interesting system. I like the combination of various parts of ArM lore and mechanics, and the restricted focus of the Founders' magic. But it's too divorced from standard ArM magic for my current tastes. We have such a great magic system, why restrict it to just magi...?

I'm currently contemplating a version of pre-Hermetic magic based on fourteen Supernatural Abilities, each representing one of the Arts (with Corpus, the Divine Form (as in "the image of god", and the form of the titans and angels and such) missing. Most traditions of hedge magic use but one Ability, perhaps even untrained (individual users), but some combine a Techinque and Form into an ability to cast spells in a mMF.

Bonisagus basically united all these into his own Magic Theory, plus added Corpus and Parma on his own, plus incorporated familiars and certamen with the aid of other Founders (Merinita, Tremere). A hedge wizard that is initiated into Hermetic magic converts his score in the Ability to the corresponding Art.

The traditions and abilities as I'm currently contemplating them:
Creo: Fertility Rites (CrCo like effect), as Ancient Magic.
Perdo: Shadow Magic (PeCo and PeIm spontaneous spells), as Ancient Magic (assasins of the Levant). The basis for the School of Apromor.
Rego: Corporeal Necromancy (ReCo ritual spells), by the necromantic cult of Guorna the Fetid in Naples; but see also Mentem. Allows creating undead as Momentary ritual spells, each type of undead learned as a spell. Rejected by Tremere, but he maintained a ReCo focus.
Muto: Shapechange (as per RAW), by german and nordic sorcerers and the Witches of Pomerania; but see also Animal. House Bjornaer still has Heartbeast, not Shapechange, and is an abomination for the Witches of Pomerania and vice versa.
Intellego: Astrology (similar to A&A astrological inceptions), like InCo spells but can ignore MR and see into future or past. Each inception is learned as a formulaic spell. See Vim. The presence of astrologers in noble courts has major setting implications.

Auram: Whistle Up the Wind (ReAu spontaneous spells to control weather) by lone tempsetaria throghout Europe.
Aquam: Atlantian Magic (ReAq spontaneous spells to control water), rare hereditary hedge tradition.
Ignem: Fire Dancing (CrIg and ReIg spontaneous spells), Ancient or Exotic Magic from Persian Zoroastrian-like traditions. The basis for the School of the Founder Flambeau.
Terram: Crystalomancy (ReTe and MuTe spontaneous spells), and then also InCo similar to astrology through a further initiation into Crystal Gazing. Hedge Magic from Polish hedge wizards (in salt mines). The basis for House Criamon.

Herbam: Herbalism, hedge magic in Germany and beyond.
Animal: Animal Ken, similar to RAW. Practiced by Werewolves of Pomerania. Practiced also by the Witches of Pomerania along with Shapechange, for casting MuCo(An) shapechange spells and MuAn enhancing spells.
Mentem: Caanite Necromancy as Anicent Magic, but was also practiced by Geurna the Fetid's tradition for ReMe spontaneous Ceremnial Casting spells affecting ghosts. Now lost as Tremere never learned it and Tytalus switched to Hermetic Theurgy.

Imaginem: Seeming, a Faerie supernatural Ability, (partially) taught to Bonisagus by the illusionist Pendule. All supernatural Abilities were taught in primeval times to the first witches by the titan/jotun Gulleivig/Hecna, but for Vim (her own Art) and Imaginem (her brother Loki's art).
Vim: Alchemy, allows vis manipulation in laboratory (and the basis of all Hermetic lab work), including enhancig natural raw vis (as per RoPM; this replaces making stuff such as greek fire and steel), and including making a (weak) longevity ritual. This includes the use of (Hedge) Magic Theory, and this is an erudite literate tradition that scholars and mystics developed independently of Gulleivig. Bonisagus belonged to an extinct (Ancient Magic) tradition using both Alchemy and Astrology, which could spontaneously cast InVi spells.

Corpus: Not available. Invented by Bonisagus as an insight from combining all other Arts.

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My pet theory is that Perdo is primarily based on the curse magics known by Trianoma, likely represented by the Hex ability (which is a favoured ability for the "wild" Witches of Thessaly).

Variants of the Divination ability (including the divine Dream Interpretation ability) was very likely known by several older traditions, and may well have formed the basis of Intellego

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Thanks for the replies ( and for reading me)! :smile: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:
Let me try to integrate your insight :laughing: :blush:

As I see it, this is all compatible. @YR7, you'll notice that minor Domains have about the same breadth as Ex Misc Supernatural abilities. This is by design, as it's one of my leads about the development of magic.
Shadow magic, being roughly 2 Tevhniques applied to the same Form, should be possible as a single, sensible, Major Domain, and a very good lead on Techniques separate from Forms, which was, in retrospect, a weakness of my original proposal :face_with_monocle:.
Corporeal Necromancy (ReCo ) fits as a mMD, as do Shapechange ( MuCo- An), providing more insight on 2 techniques applied to the same Form, as well as the invention of spellls with requisites.

@ErikT : I like your idea about Curse Magics. Sadly, it is wider / more flexible than Perdo. You could combine that with minor Domains to curse the body, the mind, fields and animals.
Divination: Great idea! especially as it is an existing Major Virtue :heart:. Likewise, the existence several, Intellego-based, minor Domains seems both reasonnable and credible, and a further lead on a Technique separate from Forms :smiley:

So, based on all that, I'd say Intellego looks like a good candidate for the first Form ( which would explain the introduction of the Scrying prohibition early in the Oath), followed by Perdo.

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I'm assuming you mean the first Technique? :wink:

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Yes, that's it. Shows of crappy my mind has become :face_with_head_bandage:
Thanks for correcting me! :smiley:

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Bear in mind supernatural abilities can yield several insight. That Bonisagus chose to use something to integrate Perdo doesn't mean his insight source didn't do more than just Perdo.

I'm personally of the school that Bonisagus likely had Comprehend Magic.

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That's an interesting remark, and yet another clue towards Intellego being the first Technique.

So, I've thought a little more about this, and adjusted my Theory ( and updated my 1st post):

We know that, before Conciatta (Lom 12), the Art of Vim could only affect Magic. So, I theorised that Bonisagus had a Greater Domain in Magic, covering Magic-realm aligned Creatures, Powers and effects ( in short, Vim, as applied to purely Magical things).
This would both help with the invention of Parma as outlined before, and with discerning similarities between different magical styles, and so, the invention of the Arts. That would probably make Vim the first art ever, and Bonisagus second contribution to Hermetic Theory :sunglasses:

I've also thought about that Perdo/ Curses idea, and, as I proposed to @erikT, outlined several Lesser Domains that could fit:

  • Curse Human Bodies: PeCo to hinder and deprive of senses/ limbs
  • Curse Human Minds: PeMe to deprive of intellectual faculties
  • Curse Humanity's tools: Pe Te, An et He effects to weaken, possibly destroy, items, as well as maybe Perdo Ignem effects so that fire doesn't heat or to extinguish fires ( although I much prefer @YR7's idea of Shadow Magic :star_struck: )
  • Curse Nature's Bounty: Perdo Herbam / Animal effects to spoil/rot fields, plants, and animal products
  • Curse Humanity's Friends: Perdo Animal spells to cripple / kill domesticated beasts

The names could probably be better, but they are all I've managed to coe up with so far.
These could be Domains practised by Trianoma, as well as possibly Diedne, Bjornaer and maybe Merinita. if several Founders practised similar magics ( Lesser domains are great for that), this would be a big clue for old Boni, and a huge source of insight.

2 other, possible, shared Lesser Domains would be Names of Power ( as in TMRE 76, Muto Vim acting on other spells), which would have greatly helped with Slow Domains ( which, IMO, were the most common Domains, shared by all wizards of Mercurian descent), and probably something like Communal Casting (Muto Vim to cast " pooling" effects like Wizard's Communion and Wizard's Vigil). This would probably imply Muto as being the 3rd Technique :mage: ( yes, there's a Mage smiley! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: )

Tytalus would have brought his knowledge of Titans Summoning ( Rego Vim), whereas Tremere probably contributed a little more (Ghosts) to Rego being the 4rd Technique.

I've also thought a little about possible Domains for Merinita, and got both Woods (Greater Domain) and Wild Beasts ( could be both Lesser if limited to Control, or Greater if more encompassing, and somebody must have helped with Creo / healing, with Flambeau, and possibly Guernicus, already contributing a Lot of Creo / creation). Meaning we now have our 5 techniques :thinking: :nerd_face:

I'll stop now, my fingers ache :smiling_face_with_tear:, but I'll probably think about it a little more :smiley: :roll_eyes: :grin:

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Hello again, fellow wizards! :mage: :smiley:

As promised, I've given this a little more thought, most notably to the question of Mercurian vs non mercurian magic.

I gave some more thought at, as my pal @Marko_Markoko would have it, the Order's unknown genius: Flambeau :fire:. Most notably, his invention of Pilum of Flame.
We know how he did it ( again, Hoh: S p7): 5 years of "trial and error". This quite looks like Practice to me, thus, a SQ of 5, meaning about 20xp per year, or, after 5 years, 100xp, or a score of 5, maybe 6 if he had something akin to Flawless Magic ( which, being the most awesome Founder, he obviously had :sunglasses:). And that was before he invented (and pioneered) Penetration :sparkler:

Back to Mercurian vs non-mercurian. What we know

  • Mercurian Magic was big on ritual, and vis-hungry.
  • The Penetration of Flambeau's spells must have been low enough so as not to go through Trianoma's Parma, which, as she had just learned it from Bonisagus, mustn't have been that high ( See HoH: S p7)

These lead me to conclude that Mercurian- based founders had Slow Domains: As we've seen above, these go well vis Ceremonial Casting and vis use, and would also lend themselves to lower penetration Totals.
So, if we give Flambeau a Slow Greater Domain in Fire of about 12, and a Poaf score of 6, he had a base CT of Sta + Aura + 30, and, thus, a penetration of Stamina + 10 + stress die ( I'm disregarding the Aura, since it also benefited Trianoma). already way too high for poor Trianoma, especially as he also probably had the Penetration Spell Mastery :sparkler:. But we also know, from F&F p 140, that another of his favorite spells was the much more difficult BoaF, so, if he started with that, he probably had a much lower Penetration Total. Say Sta + Aura +24 + Mastery 5+ stress die, minus lvl 35, which, with the Mastery ability, adds up to something like penetration = Sta + stress die -1, maybe a little lower if he was already Weary or Tired ( which he obviously was, given his rough life)., low enough for Trianoma to survive.

Non- Mercurian Domains, like the Curse abilities of Viea / Trianoma, above, and Diedne's abilities, would then be Fast Domains, advancing as Arts, but without the benefit of special Mastery abilities. This also fits well with the power and legend given to Merinita ( Hoh: TL p 75).

I gotta prepare dinner, so i'll leave you with this for now, hoping it makes sense and pleases you.
Until next time! :nerd_face:

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( edit for clarity / realism on the twin's totals)

It was difficult, but I somehow managed it. It also gave me more time to ponder about Bonisagus and the Twin sisters ( now, that sounds like a band name! :star_struck:).

So, if the Parma was an Hermetic Breakthrough ( Hoh: TL p27), its 75 points would have given old Boni a Parma score of 5 :sunglasses: :mage:
Assuming Trianoma and Viea had Fast Lesser Domains for their curses. Since Viea has a MM of 40 ( Rm p42), i'd say they had score around 20 in their best Domains, which would translate as base ( without stat, aura...) CTs of 40 - 48 + Mastery score, so, at best, around 45-53.
They were trying to slay Bonisagus, so probably casting spellls akin to Grip of the Choking Hand ( Pe Co 25), or rather a Voice Range variant of the Kiss of Death ( lvl50), which would give them at best a Penetration of 28, more probably 3. Probably not enough to hurt Bonisagus, especially if he had increased his Parma by then ( or had a Corpus specialty). But, also: Bonisagus was smart, and probably did his research before contacting the sisters. In addition to the Parma, we can assume he had a Stop dead the hostile magics effect as powerful as he could manage, meaning that a lvl 15 effect was enough to save him from the more penetrating spells :shield: :mage: (note that a score of 10 in the slow Magic Greater Domain is enough for this^^)

But back to the much more interesting matter of Flambeau :grin:
Fire being a Slow Greater Domain also makes sense, in that the Fireheart, with a Ruby's + 6 bonus to fire-related effects, was probably a massive boost to our hero's already impressive abilities :sunglasses:. If, as assumed above, he had ( in addition to his other Domains) a score of 12 in Fire, that would have been an increase of 25% to his casting total, enough for him to overcome the MR of the djinn servants of his enemies with his Pilum of Flame :sparkler:( or, more likely, seize control from them :innocent: :laughing:) and cast BoaF around at ease :fire: :fire: :fire:.
This, once again, goes well with the legend (Patting myself on the back :sweat_smile: :rofl:)

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Yeah, that part has bothered me for years. There was plenty of use for Penetration before Parma. I'm reasonably certain other tradition had (something akin to) Penetration before Bonisagus. In particular, just about anyone with magic dealing with Supernatural Beings, eg. Spirits.

At the same time, while the Parma is guarded and treated as the Great Secret of the OoH, Penetration has tended to be treated as just another (arcane) skill. Many people have strong opinions about books on Parma Magica (myself included), but books on penetration? Mabe not a pawn a dozen, but they're nothing special.

Did Flambeau really invent/pioneer Penetration? Or was his work mostly about adapting it?
Is it really plausible that the noted spirit summoner Guorna didn't have such techniques?

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Yeah, it absolutely makes zero sense that Flambeau would have been the one to invent Penetration. The skill is widely available to any and every tradition under the sun.

My take is that Flambeau the Founder may perhaps be the one most associated with the skill, perhaps having contributed the most works on the subject, or having demonstrated considerable enough skill in it?

It's certainly true that one of the best Penetration Summa we know of comes from Flambeau's apprentice. So, this could merely be a mistaken belief among contemporary Flambeau, the growing of the Founder's legend down the generations, since these figures tend to be looked upon with near god/saint-like veneration.

"He was very skilled in Penetration -> Most skilled in Penetration among the founders -> He invented it!"

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I agree, for the same reasons. In fact, I initially factored in Penetration ( and thought about pre-hermetic Mages collecting ACs to summon/ control ̶d̶̶̶e̶̶m̶̶o̶̶n̶̶s̶ spirits), until I took it out after reading the books

Judging by the one, living, Flambeau magus we know,namely @Marko_Markoko , I think you've nailed it :grin:

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Sorry, but it is a fact. Flambeau invented Penetration specifically to circumvent Parma Magica, lest any of his enemies try escaping his wrath by joining the order. The reason Penetration is available to all traditions is because Flambeau is generous and never selfish. He shared his breakthrough openly with the Order. He even invented a spell to take down the Parma of an individual target magus.
Or maybe that was me. I forget...

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I thought a little more about that very issue ( among other things :nerd_face:). Even if he didn't invent Penetration per se, maybe he's the one who found ways to improve it, notably with Sympathetic Connections ( Core p84).
So, before his work, we could have magi like Guorna using Penetration with Arcane connections ( +4 multiplier at best), whereas afterwards, Quaesitores and hoplites were able to improve it ( to +6, +8 or even more!) further, which could make a real difference, especially with the Penetration Mastery ability :mage: :magic_wand: :sparkler:

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Personally, I think he was just (over-)promoting himself a tad overly enthusiastically.
Because Sympathetic Connections feel very old-style. Look at Lead-Worker, that predates the order significantly!

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Thanks! I had, vaguely, thought about it, but couldn't find the time/energy to check.And I noticed this interesting sentence: Much of the original power of the tradition has been
lost in the move to Hermetic magic
We also got confirmation of a Lesser Domain: Control Human Bodies :skull_and_crossbones:

So now we know what Tremere was up to, besides Certamen :mage: :crossed_swords:

And, as @Berengar notes here, the Law of Names, which also increases Penetration, was probably brought in by Guorna :nauseated_face: and her pupils

OOTH, since Leadworker lists new Penetration bonuses, this doesn't preclude Flambeau contributing some things, like the Target's horoscopes :magic_wand: :sparkler:

Next time, I'll probably speak of non- mercurians. Most likely Diedne :imp:, Merinita :evergreen_tree: and Bjornaer :teddy_bear:
( in the meantine, note how much fun I have with smileys :smile: )

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Actually, the Titanoi (so the remnants of Guorna's tradition) teach Hermetic Theurgy, which specifically and explicitly uses the power of True Names. So yeah. :-/

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The Titanoi were nearly destroyed in the aftermath of the diabolist scandal, with only young and inexperienced members left. They brought in some theurgists from Greece to help rebuild the tradition. So probably not much left that is directly from Guorna's tradition.

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One interesting bit to me is a phrasing of Guorna's condition; that her physical deterioration was caused due to a "primitive longevity ritual". We know her tradition stems from Goetic Arts (at discretion of storyguide, the Titanoi retain these) and one of the Goetic Arts, Ablation, provides a longevity bonus in a similar fashion to a Longevity Ritual.

Obviously, Guorna did not share her ace in the sleeve (the body-swapping), but what if the Longevity Ritual originated from Guorna's power of Ablation?

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