Can it be assumed that a magi at gauntlet has untranslated lab texts for all of their known spells?
I've always assumed so, barring some exceptional circumstances.(*)
Having your apprentice write down his lab texts when he learns spells is just good teaching.
(*) For example, the Tormenting Master of a newly-gauntleted magus may have decided to keep those texts.
2 Likes
I think they easily can, but I don't think it's automatic. An apprentice might learn some spells by direct teaching.
I think it's a question of whether they spent a (probably late) season transcribing.
Learning Spells from a Teacher is still a laboratory activity (ArM5 p.95), and as such produces lab texts (p.101).
4 Likes
This is vile, and I'll have to remember that when a player takes that Flaw. Though it would take the Magus one or two seasons to replace all the lab texts.
I do not think a tormenting master can prevent apprentice making notes called laboratory texts. I think sole reason for such situation is the Magical Memory. And in that case Tormenting Master would apply forcing the apprentice to write those texts even if he does not need them.
Preventing a mage from writing lab notes when they create a spell could be called 'deprivation of magical power'; but of course, apprentices are not mages. Even a tormenting master might be a little loathe to subject themselves to the reputation they might get for preventing their apprentices from writing (or keeping) their own lab texts....
1 Like
An apprentice will almost certainly create a lab text when they learn a spell (assuming they know how to read and write, but most apprentices will learn that before learning any spells).
If they get to keep those lab texts is another question. That can probably vary quite a bit.
While they are an apprentice their master can legally claim any and all labtexts the apprentice produces as their own property, but most reasonable masters will probably let the apprentice keep the labtexts.
3 Likes
Just because a Lab activity allows the possibility of writing a Lab text, you first need the writing material to create a set of lab notes.
Since writing material, such as vellum, tends to be expensive, you probably need a generous master to allow an apprentice get a supply of vellum in order to write their own Lab Notes.
(I may be influenced by 4th Ed on this opinion)
Assuming they learnt the spell from a lab text, would they make a lab text themselves.
Considering the low art scores of apprentices,inventing a spell would likely take many seasons. I'd think most apprentices would learn their spells from lab texts.
There is the possibility that they aided their parens in various lab activities, including spell creation, which should allow the assistant the opportunity to write a lab text.
True, but it is not obvious that it is possible to invent a spell without creation of a lab text, without the exceptional memory virtue.
- The chapter on lab texts assert that when you do a lab activity, you create a lab text. Period. No «may» or «could».
- Learning a spell always requires (re)inventing it, whether or not you have a text or a teacher. The spell you learn is never exactly the same as the teacher's.
Now, you may argue that I read RAW as the Devil reads the Bible, but there is a logic behind this. Human beings frequently resort to writing in order to offload memory when they learn or investigate complex subjects. It is not unreasonable to assume that formulaic magic is so difficult and complex that most people (with unexceptional memory) require maintenance of lab notes to succeed.
If we decide that this is what it should be like in the setting, the writing material is just provided like all the other lab ingredients required to test the new magic. It is OTOH true that the parens could afterwards have the parchment erased and reused, or even burnt.
3 Likes
Sure, but writing down lab texts is basically part of being taught Magic Theory, so I would assume that in most cases the master would want the apprentice to learn how to write his own lab texts.
Actually, the most efficient way to learn spells is by being taught them by your master. He can teach you a number of levels up to his highest applicable lab total (see ArM5 p.95). So I would assume that most of the spells learned would be directly from the master.
Of course, some of the spells more tailored to the apprentice's strong areas and limitations may have been invented by the apprentice on his own, either with or without the appropriate lab text. By I usually see this as a minority (if any at all) of the spells a newly-Gauntleted magus knows, rather than the standard way of doing things.
I feel that the more enlightened masters would pick a season towards the end of apprenticeship, and tell the apprentice to choose a spell to design from scratch, and then spend the season creating it. Doing that once before the gauntlet with minimal supervision and a "what did you learn" conversation afterwards would be great preparation for later.
I agree any spell learning would logically be late apprenticeship, because the magi needs to be able to cast it.
Looking at the numbers, an apprentice in the last year is just managing to make a level 10 spell in 1 season, and a generalist is struggling to achieve the numbers required even for level 10.
To get to a level 15 or 20 in one season requires a specialist likely with it in their magical focus area and having affinity and/or puissant. I appreciate if the master has magic theory quite high, such as 8+ that helps a bit.
Many magi start with spells which are at the extreme end of their skills. To invent that spell, even with help from their parens, is many seasons of work.
Sure. I'm just thinking about one token spell, and my reasoning is more based on how I think a good apprenticeship would work. I agree the example newly gauntleted magi don't seem to show this as a practice.
1154AD Andalusians began lump paper production with smooth pages. Labtexts are quite likely written on vax tablets anyway.
1 Like
I think this is completely a question of what the parens thinks is important.
Verditius does exactly this as a gauntlet, just with an item instead of a spell, and I imagine they would be rather uninterested in spells. If they do it a second time, I imagine they would ask for a charged item rather than a spell.
Magi who think that spell invention is an important part of life, may well do what you suggest with their apprentices, but I imagine the majority would think that spell invention from scratch is better reserved for special interest. So many spells are available as texts these days, and there are so many other things to learn, like making beautiful things (Jerbiton), intrigue (e.g. Tytalus), Enigma (Criamon), managing auxiliaris (some Tremere), et c. I am not sure most magi ever invent a spell from scratch. Players are a different breed, always trying to push the limits of the rules.
1 Like
I would imagine that they do, the "core" spells mught be well distributed through the order, but magi will have to create new spells for their own needs.
Guys, this whole conversation is relying on the idea that the apprentice learned their spells by working from lab notes or inventing the spell themselves. However, during apprenticeship the apprentice is much more likely to be taught spells by their master (p95). In that case, they will not produce a lab text.
Creation of lab texts is on p101
"One Laboratory Text is created for every
effect that the magus creates. Thus, a magus
creates a single Laboratory Text when he
invents a single spell, or invests a single power
into an enchanted item."
I wouldn't characterize being taught a spell as an effect that the magi creates.