increasing the primary researchers lab total as norma. im talking about cases of a student have many supernatural powers
Can they? I'd say it's theoretically possible.
But I don't know any magi who would ever help each other with something like that.
Define cooperate...
The tricky issue, I think that you are considering is the case of an apprentice with a Supernatural virtue or affinity. My general feeling is no, but I don't have anything that backs this up.
The crux of the issue is that Opening the Arts of someone with a supernatural Ability/Virtue requires a minimum lab total in InVi. Often times assistants can be used in the lab to improve the lab score, but I don't think it should apply in this case. Opening the Arts is most like teaching, in fact teaching the Arts, and Arts can only be taught one on one. So, as a lab activity, I don't think Arts can be opened cooperatively in that fashion.
However, could a magus be contracted to Open the Arts, since he's an Intellego Vim expert? Yes, which begs the question of whose apprentice it is, since that's the mechanism one claims an apprentice under the Code of Hermes. I can envision an InVi expert being willing to do this, and not claiming an apprentice, after all taking an apprentice is a huge time commitment over a 15 year period...
Formally? Yes. The rules are clear, magi can assist lab activities, and opening the Arts is a lab activity. Given the problems the other posters have mentioned, you might consider other paths to your goal. First, have a Familiar. They get to help with all lab activities as well. Second, spin up your lab to really specialize int InVi, or perhaps a shared lab for the Covenant, because done right, it will be an attraction, an asset for the whole Covenant. Four or five magi working on the lab could easily give anyone opening the Arts a +20 or more to their total. That's worth something.......
And I can certainly see magi cooperating to open the arts. A husband and wife team, raising their "children", for example......
Opening the Arts being a lab activity is an inference from the InVi requirement of those with supernatural virtues. It's not an unreasonable one, but it isn't explicitly stated anywhere that Opening the Arts is a lab activity, unlike say fixing an arcane connection.
So, from the RAW, we could also take the alternative poitn view that someone whose lab total is XX has enough knowledge to open the Arts, and a lab is unnecessary.
At best, Opening the Arts is described as a season long activity.
I've never even considered Opening the Arts as a Lab Project per se. I know it's descrbed in the Lab chapter and that it uses a Lab Total. But the section about Apprentices also speaks about the Teaching of the Arts (which is not a Lab Activity) also calls Opening the Arts "training", and remember that you only need to look at Lab Totals is the Apprentice has any Supernatural Virtues needing to be preserved.
Now, if it is in fact a Lab Activity, then preserving previous supernatural skills becomes easier due to adding Aura, Lab Quality etc. and it stands to reason that you could have assistants, as all other lab activities can.
However, I would enforce all drawbacks and limitations as well - so unless all participants have 5 in all Arts the apprentice gets Deficencies. But perhaps I'm a killer SG.
No, that's completely reasonable, and supported by the canon. Best example, I think, is "Waster of Vis" applies if anyone "assisting" or "Primary" has it, and stacks if possessed by more then one.
As to "training", teaching can be a lab activity in canon, to the point you can have your lab specialized in "Teaching" (yes, yes, only up to +3....).
Uhh, no. Teaching is not a lab acitivy, but magi, who exist primarily within their lab can customize it so that they teach better in their lab than in other places. Doing so does not make teaching a lab activity anymore than a high safety score allowing one to reduce the risk of botching from studying from vis makes studying from vis a lab activity.
And, I honestly don't follow how Waster of Vis has any bearing on [strike]weather[/strike] (I've got weather on my mind, obviously) whether opening the Arts is a lab activity, since Waster of Vis also applies to any situation where vis is used, not just when used in the lab. I don't see how that support is canonical.
Simple. For opening the Arts, having less then 5 in an Art is a "Flaw", which will give the flaw "Deficient Art" to the person having their Arts opened. "Waster of Vis" applies to the whole operation if anyone cooperating has it, and that was not implied in any way to be special to the flaw, so we see that, in canon, if flaws can apply to an activity, they do. Mr. Andersen is saying that if magi cooperate to open the arts, he would apply the flaw "less then 5 in an Art" if anyone has it. Simple.
Yeah, I'm totally lost and not following your "analogy."
Note, you are stating that Opening the Arts is a lab activity based on the special case that a lab total of a certain level being required for InVi for apprentices with supernatural abilities.
Opening the Arts, for someone without supernatural abilities does not require a lab total, but does require an Art score of 5 to not inflict a Deficient Art. It doesn't require a lab total, and therefore it does not require a lab and is therefore not a lab activity. I can do it, too!
I usually take a moderate position where the part of Opening the Arts that involves converting or destroying old powers happens in the lab, while the rest happens anywhere (possibly simultaneously). After all, although we abstract it, for the characters, seasonal activities are quite involved throughout the whole thing, and it's totally possible that some of it could require a lab and some of it could not.
I can see certain Houses more prone to cooperate: Bonisagi and Merinita could do it for sure, maybe Bjornaer and Tremere. Others could see all this unlikely, since they are more prone to think on the Parens/Apprentice more like one to one thing, but that Houses (and Lienages and Cults) could see jointly instead.
But this thing could be ruled by the storyteller/group on other way.
According to ArM5, if it uses a Lab Total, it is a laboratory activity. That is stated explicitly. Opening the Arts for someone who has Supernatural Abilities uses a Lab Total, so it is a laboratory activity. Suitable helpers may assist in any activity using Magic Theory, which is part of the Lab Total. So according to ArM5 you can have assistants help you Open someone's Arts.
This does not imply Opening the Arts of someone without Supernatural Abilities is laboratory activity. According to ArM5 it is not, since it doesn't use a Lab Total. That is also stated explicitly. Of course, a few paragraphs later we have fixing Arcane Connections explicitly listed as a laboratory activity and not using a Lab Total, so there is some contradiction about lacking a Lab Total actually implying something is not a laboratory activity. This needs an erratum. I'll have to email David Chart about that. I've got a few others to send anyway, scattered through a few books, so I'll add that to the group.
That's a good catch, and I was leaning in this direction, a magus needs a lab because it is a lab total for cases of Opening the Arts with Supernatural abilities or virtues. Although, I'm not sure about whether a magus would want to involve anyone else in the Opening of Arts.
I'm fine with Fixing Arcane Connections not being a lab activity...
I can see House Tremere magi doing it.
Maybe a Bonisagus.
Or a mystery cult.
Thank you Callen. My thoughts on the Arcane Connections and Opening the Arts would be that both are lab activities, but because they require no Lab Score, anyplace counts as a very crude "lab". I would swear I saw rules for that, but I can't remember where......
This is my position as well.
I would further add that if this is not the case, we're not going to see a lot of magi with major supernatural virtues who do not also have Strong Parens.
Wait, what?
How is the InVi lab total related to teaching source quality he generates?
I can see a InVi specialist getting paid to open an apprentice with a major supernatural ability.