Chapter 10 - A Space in Time

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Light of Andorra
61

Ok, if Penetration doesn't count toward the maximum Level/Magnitude of the Ritual which can be created, that makes it more workable, too. But does the Penetration bonus apply to ALL of the "charges"? That's how it seems to work with other Charged items, but one gets more "kick" out of them, anyway, with an extra "Charge" per 5 levels over the amount needed for the total Effect with Penetration counted in. E.g. if one has a Lab Total of 70 (using the new Major Alchemical Periapts Virtue), creates a Ritual of Level 30, buys a second "Charge", and then has 10 points left over, would that be enough for +25 to Penetration for BOTH "Charges" of the effect?

The way that I'm looking at it, once the Major Alchemical Periapts Virtue is acquired, one would be strongly advised to engage in Original Research to further streamline it within the bounds of Hermetic Theory. One could, of course, attempt to adapt it for anyone to use, however, what I'm thinking is that it would be an excellent idea to research making it as efficient as other "Charged" effects.

Fixer, noted about the information on Ordeals. How it seems to be written, one undergoes the Ordeal for a given Initiation with full benefit (-3 to -9). This benefit then applies to the NEXT Initiation as well. Otherwise, Minor Ordeals would have no "carryover" at all, since they diminish by 3 points for each additional Initiation (which would make it "0" in the next Initiation if there was no carryover), and they most certainly appear to apply to the next Initiation as well.

A lot depends on the competency of the Mystagogue. Some are better at modifying Initiation Scripts than others.

In this case, I'm guessing that Fuego is highly competent as a Mystagogue. If he has this Virtue (I'm assuming that he does) then the current total for Pre+Alchemy Lore+Initiation Script bonus needed for Vares' is only 13. I don't know his exact stats, but if Fuego has a strong Pre of +3 and Alchemy Lore of 5-6 (typical for a capable Mystagogue) then the "extras" in the current Initiation Script will only have to total 4-5 to succeed with Vares at the current stage. That's true with ANY Major Mystery Virtue Fuego knows which he chooses to Initiate Vares into.

The only likely alternatives within the current Alchemical/Astrological Mystery progression would be either Major Philosophical Alchemy or Divination. I can think of others which Vares might want to pursue; these are the ones which Fuego is most likely to know and be inclined to Initiate Vares into at this point.

I had seriously considered the possibility of Vares conducting his own Experimental Initiation Script into a new Minor Virtue. He believes in original research, and original Mystery research counts. One effect which he would be strongly interested in duplicating is the one possessed by Peter Virilis at Durenmar. Vares has been working to establish his own Gifted dynasty (one of the reasons why he has never taken a Longevity Potion), and manifesting that level of Gifted fertility would, if one will permit the phrasing, help consummate his ambition in that area.

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Typical... For a NPC mystagogue :wink: PC never seem to get those lores over 3 (DT has 5, and he's a lonely exception there), and not every PC has +3 presence, while they are supposed to be mystagogues to younger cult members.

Sure, if someone is more gifted (Pre) than others, and studies Cult lore more, he's likely to be a renowned mystagogue and do more initiations than the average PC, although he probably won't bother initiating low cult members. But we're talking about the exception, here, not "the average mystagogue", and these guys should gain something in return, shouldn't they?

But still, that annoys me, as it breaks my sense of disbelief: Either the average NPC mystagogue should have scores equivalent to the average PC cultist (as every cultist is a potential mystagogue), or the PC cultist should be required to train somewhat in Cult lore, just as every advanced cult member. Sure, studying cult lore is mostly a waste of time, optimisation-wise. But it's just as well for the NPCs, so why should they all bother in order for us to have easy, custom-made, flaw-less initiations when we don't?
Case in point: Vares is supposed to be an advanced cult member, yet he only has Pre +1 and Cult Lore 2, which marks him as a relative novice. If vares had a mystagogue slightly more advanced than him (cult lore 3), being initiated by someone above him in the ranks, but not a grandmaster of the cult, the total would be +1+3/4 = +4, not +8. That's one hell of a difference.

I don't want to "break" vares (I don't even know if lower mystagogue lower scores would affect his initiation), this is not so much about him than a general tendency I've noticed among the boards, one that makes the game less credible IMO, which is sad.

:open_mouth:
That's one hell of a research!!! One that would surely mark you among the likes of Bonisagus, as it would ensure the future of the order forever, especially as gifted children are so few and far between.
I think such an exceptionnal project would be better conducted through the Original Research rules (which would give you the virtue and a script for others) than just through a rather easy initiation script, but by all means, if you're motivated, this is awesome research!!!

63

I concur completely that it makes more sense to raise (Mystery) Lore scores higher as one progresses through a Mystery. If feasible, Vares should spend at least a season studying Alchemy Lore, bringing it up to at least 3. The scores for Abilities in 5th Ed. seem to be higher than in previous editions, though, perversely, it's harder to raise a number of them.

Regarding Presence effects and Mystagogues, I've been wondering if Alluring to Magic, which produces a +3 Pre and Com effect with those of the Magic Realm--including Magi who have dropped their Parmae Magica--would have an influence on a Magus acting AS a Mystagogue. Provided the Initiate agreed to lower his or her Parma for the Initiation (conceivable, given the amount of trust involved), would the +3 bonus apply to the Mystagogue's Presence? Vares has Alluring to Magic. That would significantly affect his performance as a Mystagogue.

I'll state quickly that I'm thinking of his ability to act as a Mystagogue TO OTHERS. Though Pre seems to factor into Self-Initiation (ego, perhaps?), I am in no way suggesting that his Alluring to Magic would or should grant him a personal benefit if he attempts to create a new Initiation Script for a Mystery with himself as the subject.

In general, I feel that with the existence of Attribute-raising Rituals, experienced Magi should have increasingly higher stats as they undergo the Rituals. Those involved in a number of Mysteries should also provide it for their members (particularly the Cult of Mercury, which has the Rituals as part of their rites). This would make Archmagi that much more dangerous. The main limiter is the amount of Vis consumed and the amount of CrCo or CrMe required to learn the Rituals in the first place (of course, if one has the Arts for it, it would make more sense to stretch for a Group Target, designing it to improve numerous individuals at once).

Pushing for more Gifted offspring is something which I believe the Order should have been doing for centuries. Too few Magi have ANY children, let alone Gifted offspring. If necessary, they should be encouraged to sire/bear them as Apprentices if found when they're older. While it may work with some of the "ascetic" traditions of scholasticism and mysticism, with the existence of things like Mythic Blood, there should be many more magical blood dynasties.

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I like this idea. Yes, I think it would indeed apply to your own initiates, though not to yourself.
Also, change your Alchemy Lore ability into "Gerber Lore". You know who Gerber is I presume. Or keep it the same, it doesn't matter. I will know what is going on. Just keep the Gerber thing in mind, as he is the Father of Alchemy
This is what I am imagining. Wizards all over Iberia are picking up dribs and drabs of Alchemy and Astrology from a diverse many number of sources. There is little rhyme or reason to it, and a lot of self initiation from scripts that have been handed down through the ages. In fact, these look less like mysteries and more like discoveries. But they are indeed Mysteries.
There are also cults and cabals and schools that deliberately pursue a specific line of Mysteries. For example, Vares is associated with the Banu Mazal who focus on Astrology and Divination. His mentor Fuego is also associated with the Banu Mazal, and introduced Vares to their Mystagogues. But each of this wizards have different goals. Whereas Fuego's motives were to form ties with this exoteric sect and enhance his knowledge of Astrology, Vare's specifically sough Astrological enlightenment. Perhaps he shall be a more advanced astrologer than his mentor Fuego or even his parens Antonius Experus (who wasn't an Astrologer at all until recently, after Vares maybe).
Fuego himself is a student of the mysteries Gerber, a famous Alchemist of great accomplishment. Gerber mixed Alchemy and Astrology to great effect. He developed the secret of concocting Alchemical Periapts. The new Virtue I described. Even if none of you follows this route, do know that this is a mystery that is out there in the Order and is especially prevalent in Iberia.
Gerber also used a secret code language consisting of metaphors and double meanings. Thus, a Gerber text may contain hidden secondary or even tertiary meanings. To the uninitiated, his writings may seem like specks of semi-coherent genius mixed into vast amounts of drivel and nonsense. Hence, we have the word "Gibberish" in the English language.
So Vares has a score in Alchemy Lore/Gerber Lore. Or maybe I should have Gibberish be a separate language? Nah, to complicated that way. Anyway, indeed you shall need an ever increasing Lore score as you progress through the mysteries. Eventually you will reach a point where you may have to Initiate yourself and maybe even alter or experiment with scripts.
In fact, that is what you will have to do for the two Periapt mysteries. Fuego can provide you with the scripts, the same one he used. He may even be able to alter them slightly (according to normal rules). But you'll have to initiate yourself using them.
Right now, Fuego is experimenting with learning how to create permanent Transformations.

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Difficult to say, but I'd say yes. I doubt many magus would drop their parma, but agree it is very well possible. To me, an average magus being initiated by Vares wouldn't do it, but someone who's know and trusted him before would.

As you say, I doubt it would help in creating a new initiation script, but it would, at least IMO, help when initiating someone.

Agreed too.
This may exist to a degree, especially in the True Lineages, but more as something practiced by sub-cults than a tendency in the whole house in general.

But, well, this proves at least one thing: Magi are human, thinking in short-terms, medium at best, egotistically forfeiting the long-term consequences of their actions. Why bother with childs when this takes your precious time and lessen your own life expectancy? For the good of the order once you're dead? IRL, we can't even protect our own future :laughing:

Ouh lala!!! Don't bother!!! To me, if this is a "secret cult language", the best and simplest way to apply it is to use his Cult Lore as a language score.

66

By the way, if this would influence Ameline's acceptance, if the aegis is cast from a casting tablet and is level 45 (I believe that is what Marko said it was). Ameline can just cast it using no vis at all (3 lt fatigue for vis, 2-3 fatigue from casting 0-7 is 3, 8+ is only 2) as long as she 1) doesn't botch and 2) has 6 days to sleep it off. This would save the covenant 9 pawns a year of Vis.

She has been studying the Vim book so that eventually she will be able to create the spell and then master it.

67

Actually, it is level 60. Our enemy, Malik Khyron al-Efreet, has a might of at least 55.
But yes, Ameline will provide a big vis savings overall for the covenant, and Antonio might want to work with you on improving some of the other ritual protections of the covenant. Part of the covenant's great strength comes from powerful spells set into place many years ago, some have needed renewal and others have stood for centuries. These take advantage of a minor breakthrough that grants the use of Fire Duration to Hermetic spells, and are linked to the Eternal Flame of Andorra.

As for your membership, you don't have much to worry about. Octavian may oppose you, but Dimir Taar should remember that he made an agreement with Antonio to support you. Dimir said that he would "Stick (Antonio's) Head in the Mud" if your presence cause any problems with the Dominion. Inigo supports you, as does Marie. Not sure where Rodrigo stands, and Viola is anyone's guess. But Antonio tells you that you are his welcome guest for as long as you desire, and that all your needs will be met at his expense.

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Self-Initiate into a Major Virtue? For someone with Vares' limited Alchemy/Gerber Lore score? Err..

That would require an Initiation Script with a total of AT LEAST 17. To gain a new Major Virtue which he doesn't possess is a target of 30. He'll be -9 because of his Major Ordeal, making it 21--or the same TOTAL necessary if Fuego acted as Mystagogue. Pre +1 and Alchemy/Gerber Lore 3 subtracted from 21 leaves 17.

Start with a journey to a specific place and time +3. Mystagogue commiting time and effort (applies for Self-Initiation) +3. No new Ordeals can be tacked on. Sacrifices might gain another +2 or, if he really pushed it, +3. That would leave him with three Quests which he would have to complete before finishing the Initiation Script. At one per season--or thereabouts--it would probably take him a year to complete the entire Initiation Script.

The one and only real plus is that since Fuego has "confirmed" the effectiveness of the Initiation Script, it WILL work.

On the OOC side, I'm not positive that I'm that keen on Major Alchemical Periapts to devote that much effort into them. It's possible, and the requirements absolutely fit with the expectations of Initiating that far into a Major Mystery Virtue. There is, however, the strong temptation to experiment with an original Minor Virtue or an alternative Major Virtue.

Incidentally, Marko, what do you think of the idea for a Mystery to gain the Mythic potency/virility equivalent to Peter Virilis?

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Also the idea of genetics doesn't really appear until Mendel in a couple of centuries.

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You would have to start with the Lesser Periapts first, with a Self Initiation Ease Factor of 18. The previous Major Ordeal will lower this to 18.
As a self-Mystagogue, you have a bonus of +4 (Pre +1, Alchemy Lore 3), so you need a script bonus of at least +5.
You will be using the same script Fuego used, which he might be able to modify if you need to. And you can indeed add on a further ordeal and/or multiple ordeals. But there is no ordeal in this script. It requires two seasons during which you can only gain exposure xp, and the script bonus equals +6.
You will need to first spend a season in the lab assisting another alchemist, such as Fuego, in the lab as they create a periapt (+1), learning what you can from observation. You then sacrifice ten pounds of silver and a pawn of your favorite vis; obtaining special equipment and ingredients to experiment with (+1). With this, you spend a season in the lab creating an experimental concoction; be it a powder, potion, inhalant, etceteras. Design and craft the product according to the rules for Lesser Periapts. However, this constitutes a Quest (+3), because you must make a successful roll on the Experimentation - Extraordinary Results table. You may choose a Risk Factor of +0 to +3 as normal, which will add to the results roll or to any botch dice as normal. You will need an Experiment Result roll of 5+, a result of "Disaster" or "No Extraordinary Effect" means you will have wasted your season and must start from scratch with new materials. If the roll succeeds, apply the extraordinary result to this periapt, but you do not need to experiment with future periapts (though you may if you wish). You must first test the periapt on yourself or another subject, noting the results which will apply to future periapts using these lab notes. Thereafter, you can craft other concoctions normally. Regardless of the roll, you acquire a point of Warping from inhaling fumes (which is part of the process). Thus, each time you fail and have to roll again, you gain another point of warping as well (+1)

The Greater Periapts script is another mater. The second initiation after a Major Ordeal has only a -6 bonus, lowering the Self Initiation Target Level from 30 to 24. This will require a script bonus of +20, which is a difficulty because Fuego's script is only +15

It includes Lesser Periapts being replaced by Greater Periapts (+3), and you must again assist another alchemist in the lab for a season (+1), as he creates his own Greater Periapt. You then collect your own ingredients, a sacrifice of thirty pounds of silver and three pawns of vis (+1). This vis must come from a special source, as your Quest (+3) it must be harvested from a Beast of Virtue that is sympathetic to your Zodiac sign (for example, if you are Ares it must come from a Ram of Virtue). You have the Quest for a successful experiment as noted above (+3), including the point of Warping each go around (+1), and the full normal requirement for vis according to the rules for Greater Periapts. Once successful, you also gain the Incomprehensible Flaws as a Minor Ordeal (+3), which applies to anyone without a score in Alchemy/Gerber Lore.

Fuego can also teach you Vulgar Alchemy as a Mystagogue, or provide you with a script for Lesser Philosophic Alchemy.

And he is also open to taking on more acolytes, for those of you interested in adding some alchemy to their characters.

Never heard of the guy. I think this would probably be a Minor Virtue, gaining you a +3 to rolls to impregnate. A Stamina roll or Strength? As a Major Virtue, the bonus would be +6.

71

That is interesting! :smiley:

Ah, yes :laughing:

So, DT shall make an exception, and support Ameline :laughing: Which is the one he would have had most reservations against :laughing:

As said before, IMO, if it was that simple, it would have been already easily done by any of these bonisagus studying Peter Virilis, or any magus before. The vis source, sure, no problem. The gifted children bit? No, no, no.

I think anything other than Original Research debases such a rare occurence, and makes the background of Peter Virilis difficult to believe. Why would he be of such interest to the Prima of House Bonisagus if simple initiation could duplicate his virtue?
This is, IMO, the greatest drawback of mystery initiations, and one can easily go into a wanderer (the player)-like state of mind, with initiation becoming like a giant supermarket of virtues and powers to gain at little cost, research being utterly useless ("The virtue exists in some supplement where one guy has it as a one-of-a-kind power? I sacrifice 10 pawns of Vis and initiate it!!"). This is marko's call, but this is certainly not a game I want to play. Anyway, this kind of reasoning doesn't even apply here, as there's not even a described Virtue for him.
A Vim personnal vis source? Initiation. Being able to father gifted children? Original Research, if hermetic magic is at all capable of this, of course (Maybe this just can't be done. Marko's call)

This is a lot more important that this. See Guardians of the Forest p59

There are 2 aspects to it. His semem acts as a Vim vis personnal vis source, and, more importantly, it is hinted that any children born out of him may be Gifted: Of 4 children he's had, all four are gifted.

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Marko, I revisited the bonuses available at the start of "The Mysteries, Revised". It is next to impossible to gain a +20 bonus. Only a single Ordeal counts for ANY Initiation. If he is relying on his previous Major Ordeal, he will gain no benefit from losing the Minor Alchemical Periapts Virtue and no benefit from any Minor Ordeal giving him the Incomprehensible Flaw (which he would find unacceptable, in any event).

I was also in error. Only one Quest can be performed for any Initiation. Instead, he would have to make a major SACRIFICE in the form of creating and destroying a Talisman (+6 possible if it is very strong). Destination +3, Quest +3, Monetary Sacrifice +1, Time in service Sacrifice +1, Talisman Sacricice up to +6, Mystagogue Time +3, or a total of 17. To get up to +20 he would have to receive a full +3 Sympathetic Magic bonus. +20 seems to be the absolute maximum possible without an Ordeal. His Major Ordeal bonus if he used it once before would grant him +26 total with all of the above.

It doesn't seem logical as a Self-Initiation Script for anyone at Vares' level of Presence and Alchemy/Gerber Lore. If Fuego Initiated him, it would be a completely different matter. Otherwise, he will have to bring up his Presence and Alchemy/Gerber Lore if he wants to Self-Initiate into a Major Mystery Virtue.

Regarding Peter Virilis, he is a YOUNG Magus, who is probably still in his 30s. It was the ability to sire Gifted offspring that interests Vares. The Personal Vis Source is a separate matter, though it may be an essential part of the same Virtue.

73

Vares,
You are mistaking two different numbers.
When determining the Target Level, a single previous ordeal may apply to lower this Target Level. The one that grants the most benefit.
When determining the Script Bonus, this does not figure into the calculation at all. You can indeed have multiple Ordeals and multiple Quests. Where you are reading "Quests count toward a single Initiation only;" this means that the Quest only applies to this Initiation. You cannot repeat the same Quest in a latter Initiation. Which means I screwed up my second script! I will have to revise that :slight_smile:. But you can have two or more Quests in a script. The third example on page 15 of TMRE uses only quests.

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IIRC, Marko is right about multiple ordeals and quests. Quests, sure, ordeals... Noble's parma? :mrgreen:

Lost here. What's the rapport with his age???

It seemed to me that the personnal vis source was more of a by-product of his ability, in fact.

Anyway, being able to sire gifted children at will with just a self-initiation, even if it comes at the cost of a major flaw?
Not only is there no virtue to initiate, but even if there was, this is too much a "stuff of legend" thing to be wasted with a simple initiation any of the magi at durenmar could have done years, if not centuries, ago, due to its importance.
"Oh, I just wasted 2 years on quests (+24), sacrificed some vis and money easily gained, and have now utterly changed the face of the order, if not the world, becoming the equivalent of bonisagus (and the new prima of the house) by accomplishing something all those pesky researchers couldn't do before. Next step: 3 seasons, a beastie to kill, a minor flaw, sacrifice my old and useless talisman, and I'm self-initiating Adaamaic (or its equivalent, that I'll call Fixeric), changing again the face of the order". Beurk

(Hum, I got all inflamed and passionate again, it seems :blush:)

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Sir, does your mystery have a newsletter?

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There are any number of things which should have been accomplished centuries ago, even if one relies strictly upon the rules for Original Research. Functional Charms Against Magic, better Durations (the "lost" Duration of Permanent, vital for enchantments), different applications of the Arts, etc. Cracking the effects of Warping are also pivotal to research, as would be better types of longevity potions.

Truthfully, I could see it if a requisite for something akin to Peter Virilis' special Virtue were Mythic Blood. Discovering a way to improve/enhance one's magical lineage to achieve that would be a worthy undertaking--and, yes, it is a Major Virtue, which means that any Self-Initiation would require a tremendous amount of effort.

77

There are any number of things that could have been invented years ago. But a number of other things were invented instead. These include Aegis of the Hearth, Vanity Longevity, many of the various mysteries and other Hermetic Virtues, and so on & so forth. In my imagination, there are indeed alternative parameters for spells and enchantments, minor breakthroughs that have not been fully absorbed by the rest of the order. For example, a wile ago I mentioned the duration of "Glyph", and passed along some lab texts including some Glyph spells (this was given by Cornelius to Inigo back in Barcelona).

As for the "lost" duration of Permanent (your fourth edition roots are showing :slight_smile: ), you will be most interested in the mysteries of Alchemical Transformations (Minor and then Major). But Fuego is still experimenting with that. It is possible for you to jump the gun on him though. Get a copy of a Transformation script and experiment with it in the Lab (according to the rules in TMRE).

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More like 3rd Ed and 4th Ed. roots, with 2nd Ed. influences. The loss of Permanency was not something taken lightly, though compared to the Magic Resistance cessation for anyone without Parma, that was a correctible flaw.

At any rate, which rules are you referring to in "The Mysteries, Revised"? Converting a Mystery into a standard Hermetic Theory practice?

79

loooooooooooooooooooool :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: excellent

There was a thread on this, where someone had the exact same reasoning.
IIRC, the author told him that the breakthrough was not nescessarily possible (The GM may very well decide that any of these just can't be done with hermetic magic). And since the researcher don't know this (he's trying, and if something hasn't be done before, who can say it can't be done), he may waste years on fruitless research. And even if it is, this takes time, and there are risks. How many researchers ended up in twilight? Or stopped their research, thinking it was going nowhere, while they were in fact close to success?
More so, he argued than current hermetic magic is probably way more advanced and efficient than in ages past, and already benefits from past research. For exemple, maybe parma and form resistance didn't combine at first, some ranges didn't exist, some hermetic virtues neither (flawless magic is a good exemple of this), some arts couldn't do some things (like create cold with ignem), casting requisites weren't possible (thus you either teleported naked, or not at all)...

Exactly.

Personnally, my favorite rules for new powers are the integration rules for ancient magic, since they are both difficult, mythic and create stories. I hate the too easy "initiate any virtue at will" mystery rules for what I told before (Although I think mysteries are a very great idea otherwise), and would allow "holed in the lab" OR with more difficulty than basic rules, in order to incite players to search for ancient magics and traditions to integrate (but I think it's still cool and important than such a thing exists).

So, to me,to gain a new virtue, you could do Initiation, but for those virtues that are known to your cult only. This makes the cults much more specific and much less of a supermarket (Or else, what's to stop anyone from self-initiating any secret virtue of the Mystery Cults?).
Initiation of an unknown virtue would not be possible, unless you've been handed down a script (thus, script stealing could be a valuable, if not dangerous, adventure). Specifically, creation of a script from scratch is impossible, only modification of an existing one is. To create a script, you'd need Original Research for that. OR could then be either integration (yes, you could study a shapeshifter as insight to a script to Initiate Shapeshift), or the lenghty "holed in the lab" routine.

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I started with 4th. I have some 2nd & 3rd ed influences, but it is sort of a love-hate relationship with each of them. Where it is good, it is very good. But the bad parts are awful. It is in 4th edition that the game takes on may of the aspects and essentials we take for granted: "Targets" for spell creation, Mysteries, Individual Books in Libraries, and etceteras.

Permanent was no big loss for me. Where did it apply that it is missed? Creo Rituals of Momentary = Instant, and regular Perdo Momentary also = Instant. I don't recall any practical applications of Permanent Intéllego or Rego that I miss. The only area that I miss Permanent is with Muto spells. And if you recall, there was an Alchemy Mystery involving Muto durations in 4th edition Mysteries.
Minor Transformations allows you to cast and create Muto spells with greater ease, especially Muto Terram. These spells can only affect Substance, not Shape. Major Transformations replaces Minor, and does all of the same things. In addition, it includes other Techniques that match the qualifications of affecting Substance (Creo to make it better or Perdo to make it worse, etceteras). Finally, it allows you to create "Natural Transformations", changes in substance that for all intents and purposes are natural and real, not sustained by magic and cannot be dispelled.
I am being somewhat vague on purpose, even your mentor has not achieved this, he only recently learned of it himself.

Anyways, the rule I am referring to is on page 18 of TMRE. Experimental Scripts.