Chapter 10 - A Space in Time

[Arawn]

OOC: Will Vares be promoted to the rank of Journey or Master? I've never been entirely clear on that point.

He would be willing to pay his own way to the Tribunal. It is too important to pass up. Though until the Magi are actually members of Andorra, would they be able to vote in neighbouring Tribunals without affecting Andorra's standing?

Vares is currently in an excellent position to undergo another Mystery. He completed a Major Ordeal in his last Mystery, which gives him -9 to his next Initiation target. At that level, he could conceivably undergo a Major Mystery with a competent Mystagogue--or attempt his own Minor Mystery experimentation (his difficulty would only be 9 for an unknown Minor Virtue). He is presently involved in the Alchemical/Astrological Mystery path and has begun entry into an independent course of Enigmatic Wisdom with its associated Mysteries (he is not formally on any Avenue).

[Marko_Markoko]

@The Fixer

Time.

Might I point out that some of these guys have been playing in this game for over a year and a half now? Do you really think it is fair to make Arwan and Vortigern to continue to squirm like this? It has been such a long time!

[Vortigern]

@The Fixer

@Octavian

@Marko Markoko

Landing you at the start of Spring 1222, where you are all made Journeymen Members unless there are any protests.

Octavian will vote against all of them.
(...)
No in character reason to allow them. None of them except Ludivico even bothered to introduce themselves, no less earn his vote.

Dimir Taar too, for the same reasons.
That, and he thinks you really have to prove your work and dedication to the covenant. If he were to decide, there would be more grades, and you'd gain them depending or both seniority AND dedication, although the later could speed things up by about half, while whe former would hit a wall somewhere (Dedication can take you high, seniority has its limits)

In all fairness, while Ludovico hasn't 'smoozed' Dimir as he has some of the others, that is purely because of our respective bouts of inactivity combined with being involved in different scenes etc. I think.

I certainly rather took for granted that the two had a decent relationship based on our other conversations. But anyway.

On the issue of time. I 'do' find it rather inconvenient to have the prospect or not of membership still looming. Ludovico for example still hasn't set up a lab in Andorra for that reason. Which further complicates his advancement in this recent spate of downtime, making it worth considerably less to him, with the membership vote coming at the end of it as it does.

Either way, while I highly encourage people to vote as they think is IC ( And I Do! ), if the issue is time... I think forbearance and dedication to the game/covenant has been shown aplenty by several parties that are not 'members'. Yet that is easily a matter of perception.

[The_Fixer]

IIRC, there are guests labs you can all use

(I, as a player, would find it very unfair to block you from labs, and even DT think it's normal of you, or any visiting magus, to use guest ones)

@Marko Markoko

@The Fixer

Time.

Might I point out that some of these guys have been playing in this game for over a year and a half now? Do you really think it is fair to make Arwan and Vortigern to continue to squirm like this? It has been such a long time!

The players have.

But in game, what did DT witness they do for the covenant, besides going to a drake hunt (which, in DT's opinion, counts as Fun and Games)? Nothing.

Anyway, DT made it clear before he was all for long waiting times He sees membership as a privilege to be earned

[Yan]

So even if we're not members we can have labs and eat for free?

Hey I'm in for that!

[Vortigern]

I had not forgotten the guest labs available... however that is obviously not the same thing as having a lab that you can customize/modify up to help your advancement.

For example Ludo is currently waiting to affix an item into 'his' lab, to finish an initiation and gain a virtue. Can't do that in a guest lab. Or at least... it would be inadvisable and in poor taste.

But yes. Lab activities can be performed.

[The_Fixer]

Well, I can't see why you couldn't.

There may be restrictions, such as the number of guest labs or the quantity of food available, but otherwise, I don't see anything that could come into play

[Octavian]

BTW is it just me or the quote buttons are missing on posts?

@The Fixer

Dimir Taar too, for the same reasons.
That, and he thinks you really have to prove your work and dedication to the covenant. If he were to decide, there would be more grades, and you'd gain them depending or both seniority AND dedication, although the later could speed things up by about half, while whe former would hit a wall somewhere (Dedication can take you high, seniority has its limits)

Finally, someone showing rational decision making other than Octavian!

@Arawn

OOC: Will Vares be promoted to the rank of Journey or Master? I've never been entirely clear on that point.

Neither if Octavian's vote has anything to say about it. I include Vares and Ludovico in Octavian's voting.

@Arawn

He would be willing to pay his own way to the Tribunal. It is too important to pass up. Though until the Magi are actually members of Andorra, would they be able to vote in neighbouring Tribunals without affecting Andorra's standing?

You need to be a resident of that Tribunal to vote or it being the Tribunal you performed your gauntlet in unless you had then later changed residence. So for example, Octavian received his gauntlet in Transylvania Tribunal, but then moved to Iberia Tribunal, and later to Andorra. So he can't vote at Transylvania unless he moved back there and took residence. Mind you, as a quaesitore he can't vote anyways but that's besides the point.

@Marko Makoko

Might I point out that some of these guys have been playing in this game for over a year and a half now? Do you really think it is fair to make Arwan and Vortigern to continue to squirm like this? It has been such a long time!

Well we started in May 2008, so more like a year and a quarter and the two examples you gave came later which segues into:

@The Fixer

The players have.

But in game, what did DT witness they do for the covenant, besides going to a drake hunt (which, in DT's opinion, counts as Fun and Games)? Nothing.

Anyway, DT made it clear before he was all for long waiting times He sees membership as a privilege to be earned

[Arawn]

OOC: Vares has traveled extensively, both during his Apprenticeship and in the years since his Gauntlet. He's from the Provencal Tribunal, originally, but has probably voted in several different Tribunals subsequently.

Octavian is certainly free to oppose Vares' membership. For whatever reason. If Vares isn't accepted, he'll just travel to somewhere else--taking the knowledge he's acquired with him.

Waiting to hear back from Marko on the Mysteries.

[Marko_Markoko]

@Arawn

OOC: Vares has traveled extensively, both during his Apprenticeship and in the years since his Gauntlet. He's from the Provencal Tribunal, originally, but has probably voted in several different Tribunals subsequently.

Octavian is certainly free to oppose Vares' membership. For whatever reason. If Vares isn't accepted, he'll just travel to somewhere else--taking the knowledge he's acquired with him.

Waiting to hear back from Marko on the Mysteries.

If I recall correctly, Vares has been to Provencal, Iberia (before now), Normandy, and Rome. Maybe more.

Everyone remember that as players you are all equal. Arwan is just as important as Octavian (the player), and Fixer has no authority above Vortigern.

Having said that, as characters you are unequal. Octavian (the character) and Dimir Taar have rank and status that Vares and Ludo do not.
And everyone is keeping it In Character, which is good. No one needs take it personally if voted against (or voting against). I am gonna run it as a majority vote (and I control a lot of votes), but there is a very real chance of not bbeing accepted.
But do not despair!!
It is always been part of my secret plan to oe day establish a chapter house or second covenant somewhere else in the mountains of Andorra. Antonio has a plan to one day have twelve magi at Andorra, then split them up into chapter Houses, nurse them all into Covenants of their own, and declare his own tribunal. This of course will fail, but he does not realize that (nor do you). He talks about it in vague terms while he is drinking. There was also talk about forming a Catalan Tribunal with Barcelona, but everyone already knows that this will never work. It's just talk.

But in any case, you will always be part of the game one way or another, as covenant mates, allies, rivals, or enemies.
Everything Works Out in the End. Just ride with me here...
Mysteries to come in my next post!

[Marko_Markoko]

This is my idea for an Alchemy/Astrology mystery based on Fuego's studies of Gerber...

Alchemical Periapts
Lesser Alchemical Periapts – Minor Mystery Virtue
Alchemical Periapts are similar to Astrological Periapts; it is mainly a cosmetic difference between the two. Alchemical Periapts come in the form of vials, powders, elixirs, potions, salves, and whatnot. Charges are represented by the number of doses/uses/applications he generates.
Alchemical Periapts use a mix of Astrology and Alchemy, using the rules on p.48 of TMRE, but modified for flavor. You create a Periapt Horoscope as normal, rolling a Stress Die + Intelligence + Artes Liberales (Astronomy), against an Ease Factor of 9+. However, the Maximum Level of the effect equals 5 x Philosophiae (Natural Philosophy). The number of resulting Charges equals your Lab Total divided by 5 (round up). This is fractionally less advantageous than Astrological Periapts, as this relies on two different scores. However, as an equal bonus to offset this, you can gain a Bonus to your Lab Total (and Maximum Effect Level) by using Special Ingredients (as per Shapes & Materials, and likewise restricted to a limit of Magic Theory).

Greater Alchemical Periapts – Major Mystery Virtue
This includes all of the effects of Lesser Alchemical Periapts, and if the Initiate already has that Virtue, then this replaces that (which counts as a Minor Ordeal for the loss of a Virtue). This Virtue requires Planetary Magic and either Vulgar or Hermetic Alchemy.
In addition to those effects, this Virtue allows you to instill Ritual Effects into Periapts. This procedure is fundamentally different, but uses a similar formula. Drawing up a horoscope does not provide a Lab Text advantage, but it is still required in order to perform this procedure. The roll is a Stress Die + Intelligence + Artes Liberales (Astronomy) + Philosophiae (Natural Philosophy), against an Ease Factor of 9 + (the magnitude of the Ritual effect). The Maximum Level of the effect equals 5 x Philosophiae (Natural Philosophy).
Your Lab Total must of course equal or exceed the effect, and you gain a potential number of charges equal to (Lab Total – Level) divided by five, rounded up. You do not to craft that many charges, choosing a lower amount (minimum of 1). Each charge requires vis equal to the magnitude of the ritual effect, and since you are limited to 2 x Magic Theory pawns per season, getting the maximum number of potential charges may be tricky. You still get your Special Ingredient bonus, which adds to your Lab Total and to the Maximum Effect level. This bonus also adds to the amount of vis you may use. If you used Philosophic Alchemy to distil vis into your ingredient materials, then you can use this vis as an additional bonus (Philosophic vis doesn’t count toward your limits).
Example: Fuego of Flambeau has a Creo Corpus Lab total of 65. He wants to create a salve that improved any one wound one level. This is a 20th level Ritual effect, so his Ease Factor is 13. He has an Intelligence of +5, Artes Liberales 4 (Astronomy), and Philosophiae 5 (Natural Philosophy). He rolls a 2, so his total is 18, and he succeeds. With his Lab Total, he has the potential for 9 charges. However, his Magic Theory is 11, which allows him to use 22 pawns of vis in a season. That’s only enough for 4 charges. Using Special Ingredients he can use up to 33 pawns, enough for 7 charges. If he can somehow squeeze three pawns of Philosophic vis from his ingredient choices, then he can gain his full potential of 9 charges. Later, he wants to make an elixir that improves all wounds by one level, a level 30 ritual effect. He has a maximum potential of 7 charges and requires 6 pawns per charge. He needs 42 pawns of vis to get his full 7 charges, at least 9 of which would have to be Philosophic vis.

[Vortigern]

First: Your new mysteries, I think, are awesome.

Second:

My tentative advancement allocations. Let me know if there are any issues. I've been on nights lately, so all of this is done with a healthy dose of fatigue involved.

12xp ( +5xp Bargain, +5xp Leadership, +2xp Brawl )

1: Study 'Corporeum' ( L15, Q10 )

+10xp Corpus, Adjusted Score 4.

2: Study 'De Theoria Magica, Including Gloss & Commentary' ( Summa L9, Q16 - Commentary Q 14 )

+16xp Magic Theory

3: Study 'De Theoria Magica, Including Gloss & Commentary' ( Summa L9, Q16 - Commentary Q 14 )

+16xp Magic Theory, Adjusted Score 4 ( +12xp )

4: Leap Of Homecoming ( Rego Corpus 35 )

5: Canals By Moonlight, Venice Revealed ( Adventure Story to be Written. )

[The_Fixer]

@Marko Markoko

Everyone remember that as players you are all equal. Arwan is just as important as Octavian (the player), and Fixer has no authority above Vortigern.

That's why, for me, player guest must have acces to guest laboratories: I'd hate and find very unfair for their character growth to be stunted because of in-game reasons, while ours wouldn't.

@Marko Markoko

It is always been part of my secret plan to oe day establish a chapter house or second covenant somewhere else in the mountains of Andorra.

DT could be convinced of this.
Having the new magi prove their dedication by establishing a chapter house somewhere, probably with a vis tribute (since this wouldn't impact character studies or most lab work, but be significant ingame. BUT not something that'd cause them vis shortage in any way: determine how much vis you want them to have, and add the tribute above that) would be a great way for them to gain full membership. And once this is done, no vis tribute, of course.

@Marko Markoko

But in any case, you will always be part of the game one way or another, as covenant mates, allies, rivals, or enemies.
Everything Works Out in the End. Just ride with me here...
Mysteries to come in my next post!

Rivals or ennemies would be fun, too. Amber Throne War!!!

[Arawn]

OOC: Greater Alchemical Periapts is an impressive Mystery. ANY ability to create Ritual effects in advance can be formidable, however, the Level limiter cuts into their viability, because most Rituals are of much higher Magnitude. And there doesn't seem to be any Vis savings in creating the Rituals in advance, either. One needs a minimum Philosophiae (Natural Philosophy) score of 5 to 6 before one can begin creating the types of Ritual Periapts which are most needed.

So, in effect, one has to spend an entire season pre-enchanting Rituals with no Vis savings, and a cap on the Ritual level. Plus one is handling an almost insane level of Vis with major backlash potential.

It feels like it's on the right path, but not there yet.

[Marko_Markoko]

I figure that puts it on par with other Mysteries from the book

But there is a huge cost savings. A magus can already pre-enchant rituals, because in fifth edition you can put ritual spells into a Watching Ward. Since the WW must be at least equal level to the ritual, and since WW is also a ritual, you are using roughly double the vis. It takes 8 pawns to pre-cast and store a CrCo20 ritual. And, since you are spell casting with this vis, there is the increased chance you may botch. Greater Periapts take a bit longer, but use far less vis than the WW method, and since it is a lab activity with no roll involving the Arts or use of vis, there is no botch chance. The Horroscope roll is not using vis in the lab actvity, this is a prerequisite. Failing that roll means you cannot proceed that season, botching that roll means you try to proceed anyway and wind up wasting the vis. Still, no Warping is involved.

You are correct that the need for a high Philosophiae score is demanding. Perhaps Puissant Philosophiae is one of the Virtues taught by Gerberi's Alchemy. Another idea is that perhaps the Form and Effect Bonus also adds tp Philosophiae for the purpose of determining the maximum level of an effect, up to a maximum of your Philosophiae score. That will be inspiration to track down and collect the right sort of ingredients, and to use Vulgar Alchemy to develop new ingredients. What do you guys think? I think that is what I want to do with this one.

Also, Alchemy is available to all of you that wish to pursue it. It is a common study of Iberian magi, and Outer Mystery and several Minor Mysteries are easilly available from many sources, many of which are not quite so cultish. However, to get into the deep heavy stuff like Vares, you will need one or more cult associations.

[Octavian]

Upgrading the merit shouldn't count as a minor ordeal. The greater talisman mystery doesn't work like that so I figure it should be the same.

[Vortigern]

Many virtues in RAW do work that way however, so it isn't something without precedent. In fact it seems to work that way rather often.

[Arawn]

"The Mysteries, Revised" states that the loss of a Minor Virtue when it is replaced by a Major Virtue is considered a Minor Ordeal, if applicable. In Vares' case, it wouldn't be, both because he doesn't HAVE the Minor Virtue yet, and because he has the effect of the Major Ordeal which he underwent last time (only the greater Ordeal counts toward an Initiative; -9 trumps -3 easily).

If Philosophiae can be supplemented, the Major Virtue has greater use. I honestly hadn't reckoned on not risking Warping from the Vis. I thought that the risk would be there, and would, if anything, be far, far greater. If it is "safe", then the Virtue is certainly more worthwhile.

What about Penetration? That is actually the single biggest reason to use Charged Items, anyway, in 5th Ed. Also, what about Lab Assistance? Rituals can normally benefit from "Wizard's Communion".

[Marko_Markoko]

Lab Assistants contribute the normal benefit to your Lab Total.

As for Penetration, that is counted separately from the level of the Ritual effect (that is, it does not increase the magnitude or the vis requirement). Otherwise it is calculated as normal.

And yes, sacrificing a Minor Virtue that is replaced by a Major Virtue counts as a Minor Ordeal (TMRE, p15, sixth bullet point). Examples from TMRE include Planetary Magic to Celestial Magic, and Minor Philosophic Alchemy to Major Philosophic Alchemy.
For Vares, the previous Ordeal lowers the Script Ease Factor. Any new Ordeals designed into the script still contribute to the Script Bonus. These are two separate totals calculated differently.

[The_Fixer]

Agreed on the loss of a minor virtue. This is also said on p14: "Losing a Minor Virtue is a Minor Ordeal"

The ordeal thing is less clear: On the one hand, it says explicitely that only one ordeal can apply its benefits at a time, but on the other hand, it seems to apply it just like marko says.
It SEEMS to me that the two things are muddled: They say a major ordeal grants +9 to the script, and that it lowers the ease factor by 9 for the first initiation after an ordeal. Since you suffer the ordeal before the initiation, which is the reward, I believe these may refer to the same thing, written differently (+9 to the roll is the same as -9 to the ease factor), but I'm really not sure, this is murky enough, and a good case could be made for both things. May I suggest asking the authors for a clarification?

Note, however, that mystery initiation don't work on a case-by-case basis for the benefits of the players: Unless the mystagogue is ready and willing to change to script, if it asks for an ordeal, then the character suffers it, even if it wouldn't be nescessary: Scripts are not designed on a case-by-case basis, and thus shoudl be enough for an average mystagague in an average condition.
Nonetheless, a strict cult, that has a clear progression (initiate mystery A, then mystery B, then Mystery C), probably has anyway a sequence of scripts that take advantage of previous ordeals (ordeals you'll suffer through), thus inflicting comparatively less flaws that a desorganised cult (Iniiate A, B or C, then any of the others, then the last), where any script has to be a beginner's script.
Finally, any cult will probably (and logically) require you to acquire a desired level of (Mystery Cult) Lore in order to progress, as well as to serve as mystagogue to other cultists (story seed inside)