Character Creation for Gaxxian (OOC)

Great :smiley:

xD Now that i've imagined the scene, adding Celeste riding Lencor too, i cannot agree more xD I will change the flaw :stuck_out_tongue:

Btw, since the flaw it would give him another virtue... its that ok?

There's a Magical Animal flaw in RoP:M. I believe it's a Free Flaw.

Yep, but its not a Social Status D:
The one pointed by Rafael is also extremely adequate to an animal like Guiscard, too.

I'd drop Greedy or Wrathful in exchange for it, keeping the personality trait if desired. To some degree, the difference between a personality trait comming from a Personality Flaw and one freely chosen is semantic if the character is going to be mainly under the control of a specific player.

The Social Status I do not consider semantic, because it describes the relation between the character and the world around it, and that's important. Magical Friend Guiscard is very different from Magical Covenfolk Guiscard, who is different from Magical Champion Guiscard.

Also, looking at RoP:M, Magical Friend is specifically intended to be the counterpart of Magic Animal Companion. Onfrei is the one people trust, Guiscard does not merit any respect by himself; society sees him as an sidekick to Onfrei, and wouldn't interact with him at all if not for Onfrei.

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I've changed Motion Sickness with Incomprehensible. Also, now it turns into a Boar instead of a Bear.
And i followed Rafael idea and i chaned Greedy with Magical Friend :slight_smile:

I forgot something or its everything ok?

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I've added the advancement from those seasons before the adventure directly at my sheet.

I understand that both spells that i made in Summer could be learnt in the same season, since the restriction only applied in the advancement process, but not in-game. It's that ok?

The binding of Stella requires an extra pawn (8 Herbam that i had + 1 extra) that i don't have with my starting resources. I understand that i can take it from the yearly payment? Its that ok?

Also, the binding process will give me 45 exp points to buy Cords. I will use them like this:

  • Golden Cord: 30 exp → Level 3
  • Silver Cord: 0 exp → Level 0
  • Bronze Cord: 15 exp → Level 2

I will also write here the effects of the magical item created by Alba (costs 2 pawns to make it):

Chest of infinite charcoal (CrHe 20 effect)
It seems a regular big but simple chest made of fair birch wood, but it's infact inchanted to generate a large amount of charcoal the first time that it's opened each day.
The charcoal lasts for a Moon duration (or until it's burnt).
(Base 2 + 1 Touch + 3 Moon + 2 Group)

If its not good, please, tell me and i will make changes or another activity.

Make it a big chest, Regulus lab gets quite cold, specially in winter.

I see no problem, either with Onfroi/Guiscard or with the advancement. =]
But the effects of the custom item should be noted somewhere in either Alba's sheet or the covenant's. Or both, perhaps.

Also no problem with the vis, I believe. We do need to finish our sources (or at least their types) and get to track the income and distribution, however. A problem for future us to deal with. =9

Oh, its a big one. But also, since it makes Moon duration charcoal, it ends up accumulating anyway :stuck_out_tongue:


I think that the covenant one would be better, since this chest its meant to be used at all the covenant... from the kitchens to hearths.

Great :slight_smile: Our future selves will hate us a little, but its ok xD

Note that the base Herbam individual is "a plant roughly one pace in diameter". That includes quite a bit of empty space, so this is much less that a cubic pace of wood or charcoal. So I would estimate that a Group's worth of charcoal would be about 2-3 cubic paces. Nothing to sneeze at, but still less than a covenant would consume in a day -- particularly one as large as Tugurium.

My understanding is that the charcoal can spill out of the chest when the power is activated, so the chest doesn't need to be overly large. It just makes carrying the charcoal harder.

Note that using D:Sun instead of D:Moon would allow the item to be used 24 times per day. The charcoal wouldn't last as long, but you'd have much more of it. Of course, it might mean having to relight some of the fires (or being disciplined enough to add a non-magical log into the fire a bit before sunset/sunrise to keep it going).

Why the sudden nerf to Herbam? If the base size is around 37,5 cm3 i cannot even affect a cabinet without size increments. And i can forget about affecting trees ^^!

If you want to read it like that, make it at least 1 meter3. Thats already a lot less than a pace and the Art remain usable (the maths are also easier).

Technically yes, it could even be a fork or any other object, but a chest sounded cooler and worked well to transport the coal too.
And opening a chest and suddenly having coal flying into your face seems dangerous and quite strange to me xD

Thats another possibility... that would help a lot into increasing the quantity to cover a lot of the fires. I like the idea.

On this I feel the same as Gaxxian. It seems a bit restrictive to reduce by that much the amount of finished product.
If the plant is a shrub, ok, but if the plant is a grown tree, most of that would be usable wood, no?

What about meeting somewhat in the middle? TME presents a spell to create grains, and equates 20 bushels of grain to 1 base individual of Herbam. My google-fu tells me this is about 0.7 cubic meters. Does that seem reasonable?

Nothing sudden about it. I've always taken the position that the base individual of a Form is based on the size of the actual object given as an example, not volume packed completely full. That is why Conjuring the Mystic Tower needs all those extra magnitudes for Size, even though it is mostly empty space.

Also note that to me a pace is about a 3 feet long (or a yard). I do not subscribe to the theory that the Ars Magica pace is the Roman double pace -- the name even say it, that two paces. So to me a cubic meter is over the base individual for Herbam, not a middle ground. :wink:

But yeah, maybe saying 2-3 cubic paces of charcoal for a Group target creation is on the low side. More on the side of 5 to 8, probably. But that still won't fit inside any chest that you can carry around. I wasn't seeing it as charcoal "flying out in your face" when you open the chest, more like bubbling out and spilling out for a few seconds.

I would also point out that it's not going to make a difference for the covenant, since I'm not doing detailed finances à la Covenants. That may not have been clear, since that was discussed quite a while ago for the saga. So cost savings are only a nifty narrative piece, not a precise mathematical thing.

When you create an actual tree, there is much empty space too. You are creating the branches too, not just the trunk. A mature tree probably requires 2 extra magnitudes for a tree that's about 100 cubic paces in volume (that's about 4.5 paces in each direction). Tha actual volume of wood in there would be about 10%.

But as I wrote above, it's not a big thing, since covenant cost savings are not a precise thing in this saga.

Yep, a pace is roughly equal to 1 meter/yard. 1 cubic pace is roughly 1 cubic meter. Fully subscribe to that.

I don't think the core of the issue is the final impact on covenant finances, but how big is an individual of Herbam when we talk about anything other than plants. We do have an Herbam magus after all.

But if I'm reading it right it should still be roughly the same for most objects (if it fits inside 1 cubic pace/meter/yard it's a base individual), with a potential need to double check on solid things or bulks (such as a stack of timber, a crate full of apples, woven cotton, etc).

You say this as it wasn't a nerf, yet you nearly tripled the volume amount that you said in first place.
Luckily the second numbers are fair and let me play again with Herbam :frowning: Even with the lower ones i mean. And now i dont have any problem with those values.
With the first numbers that you said, suddenly Herbam was unusable in a lot of ways and existing spells would be impossible D:

Ok, i can suscribe those measures too.

I know this. I read the topic, and its ok with me. I wanted to invest in the narrative resources of the covenant.
I dont need or want an exact amount of reward for it, but just there to be used into the narrative when its fit.
For example, if we use less wood into the fires, maybe we can have better furniture... or we can build a barn, or whatever. Or nothing but its there to add fluff to the covenant.

Exactly this.

Yeah, the item wasn't specially powerfull to give charcoal for all the covenant (in winter at least) but i thought that it should suffice for the kitchens. And i also thought that maybe with time Alba could make a few more chests to feed the other fires in winter too.

It wasnt an ambitious object, so I really don't understand how this topic came from it... A chest, even a big one, cannot fit such amounts of charcoal anyways.
It was such unambitious that it looked like i was doing some wrong math with Herbam? I don't understand the need of clarification if isnt that.

Maybe its better if i make an item like this one? Its more ambitious, so its more helpful, and also doesnt need to enter into the Base size problem:

Fire feeding wand (CrHe 20 effect)
With a twist of hand, this small birch wand can create a block of charcoal from thin air.
The charcoal lasts for a Moon duration (or until it's burnt).
((Base 2 + 1 Touch + 3 Moon) + 10 unlimited uses)

I would also add that, due to Alba's sigil, the charcoal pieces are shaped like flowers and have a slightly good smell (when they burn, the smoke smell is completely normal).

With that wand, the covenant needs are covered and it shouldnt give any issue... i suppose... at this point i'm not sure about what i can do anymore, tbh ^^!
Maybe it's better if I just say what effect i want to achieve and then let the rest tell me how i can do it?

With this wand we would need to dedicate a grog to operate it and become our coal maker, but he could create a fairly large amount over the course of one day.

As far as a coal creating item goes both the wand and the chest seem a nice addition to the covenant. I'm a bit partial to the chest because it seems more practical, but well.

On another note, how exactly is Alba reaching the required lab total for this item? If I'm calculating right, her CrHe lab total can reach 43 (Cr 6 + He 15+3 + Int 3 + MT 5 (4 +1 Herbam focus) + Aura 5 + Stella's help 2 + S&M 4). Then she could, if you go with the chest, give it 2 daily uses. If you experiment, 12 uses is well within reach (as long as you do not botch the roll).

Sorry about that, it was a bit of an automatic reaction from me. I so often see people equating a base individual of herbam to a solid cubic pace of wood (which is now how I read the base individuals in general) and then applying it as the basis for the volume of much larger things, that I overreacted in this case.

And I'll plead that I just came back from my trip, so jet lag is still in effect. :wink:

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Ok, no problem Arthur :slight_smile: But you had me scared there for a moment xD

Well, if we are producing our own wood we already have grogs dedicated to it, so we would save several jobs even with a dedicated coal maker :stuck_out_tongue:

I'm also a bit more partial for the chest, but the wand works in a more abstract way :person_shrugging: As you all prefer.

Where does that +4 from Shape and Material come from?
The material i'm using is Birch wood, that one has a +1 for CrHe (i could use Almond wood, that gives a +3 for the same arts) but technically the chest doesnt give any other bonus... (there are recipients that gives a bonus for creating things inside or something like that, but chest/box/crate isnt one of them... and i didnt wanted to improvise bonuses, as much sense as they could have).
If we add some extra chest bonus for that, then yeah, i could have that +4 for sure (maybe 5? idk if the Herbam specialization let you increase the max S&M bonus in this case).

About Experimenting... thats a no-no for Alba. She is far too cautious to do things like those :stuck_out_tongue: She likes predictable and controlled results.
But she could work a little more and have a bonus. Just as she did when she binded Stella. So she could add another +3 and her lab total would reach 46.

With that and Arthur idea of making the coal "grow" from the chest, so it can use the max amount even if it doesnt fit inside the chest, the amount maybe would be decent enough even for our covenant. What do you think?
And the idea about Alba's sigil for the coal can still be there after all, too.

On another hand, that would also increase the chest cost in another extra pawn. It's that ok with everybody? Technically is something that could benefit the covenant as a whole, but maybe somebody doesn't want to invest too much vis into this item.

Good point!

I was thinking of container (+5 create or transform within). But it should actually be +5 S&M, not +4, I forgot to consider the specialization! And yes, I understand the specialization should apply (just as it applies for handling vis, for example).

But if the chest overflows I’m not sure a +5 for creating things inside should apply anymore. :thinking:
It’s not hard to build a large container/chest (1.5 x 1.5 x 3 = 6.75) instead of a small one.

Ouch. Forgot this one.
Well, it’s still cheaper than building a second lvl 20 chest. If Alba can push for a large enough lab total and get enough extra uses, I think it’s worth it.

Again, Regulus lab gets cold. Specially on winter. He is not going to complain if we get extra coal at the cost of 1 extra pawn, specially if it smells nice. XD

I just did maths for fun, and if my calcs are correct, a chest with a volume of 6.75 cubic yards, is equivalent to around 5.16m3.
Since charcoal weights (aprox) 208 kg/m3, that means a little more than a ton...
So, with 12 uses each day, thats 61.93m3 each day... thats translated into nearly 13 tons of charcoal each day.

Maybe... maybe we went overboard xD

On the bright side... we can fuel every hearth in Laimunt Valley xD

We can cover your lab in charcoal if you want xD

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I'm considering alternatives to the mundane construction of my laboratory using ritual spells.
Between using wood or stone, I am inclined to use stone, since it is a much more resistant material and in which termites will not appear :stuck_out_tongue: Also, using a "living tree" would require more magnitudes to make the same building (and so, a higher vis cost, and Alba prefers to actually invest into learn others Arts than make something more costly).
Therefore, I decide on using the tried and trusted CrTe combination ^^

I've been looking to other similar CrTe building spells to understand a little more how it should be done. That means Conjuring the Mystic Tower (ArM 5, pg. 153) and Creation of the Walls of Simple Cottages (TME, pg. 61) and all the variations of this last one.

Understanding that the Complexity part its a little more subjective, I though into making a proposal so we can discuss it before Alba can work towards it. So I don't end with wrong expectations due to oversights or bad calculations.

This would be my proposal and my explanation, so we have something to work with. But first, the building size:
Doing some rough calculations, Alba's sanctum would measure around 600-650 m3. That translates into 880-990 paces3 (understanding pace as yard). In other words: +3 size (to reach 1000 paces3 for the spell).

So, the result would be (if i'm not missing anything): Base 3 + 1 Touch + 3 Size
Now, with the +X Complexity.

The Cottage spells have a +1 due to making several buildings in chain, and the advanced ones have another +1 to make doors, pivots, plumbing, sewage... Also, they have the possibility to add +1 to make diversify the buildings.
Conjuring the Mystic Tower doesn't have a lot of explanations... it has a +3 and you need to imagine why. I understand that making a 100 feet height monster (20 of those being the foundation) would need a +1 for complexity due to the design in itself to sustain the tower. Also, its not directly explained, but i understand that this tower could have chimneys and similar types of "plumbing", so i understand that another +1 could come from this. The last +1 would come from the fact that the tower itself is customizable.

Following this line of thought (it may be wrong), in my case i think that a +1 its needed due to being an intricate design (its not a tower, but it has arches, dome, etc). Also, it would be interesting to be able to use the same spell to make buildings with customizable layout (increasing the usefulness of the spell), so another +1 for customizable would be needed.

So, if my understanding is correct, the spell would end being CrTe 25 (Base 3 + 1 Touch + 3 Size + 2 Complexity).
It's also interesting to think about other limits from the spell. I already mentioned things like no plumbing, no chimneys, no stone doors with pivots, no building chains... but others could be max 2 stories high, max X paces wide or things like that.

Let the discussion begin xD

PS: maybe there is a better place to post this? I feel like its not completely Character Creation even when its Alba related... maybe we need some thread for spell/object design discussion?