Character Creation for Vortigern (OOC)

I believe this is correct. I won't tell anyone if you won't.

I'm not sure such a young Magus would be the primary thrust of such an initiative. But I suppose it isn't impossible either. Especially for one with stronger Cult ties/patronage. Yet I'm not sure I would see it as a reasonable state for the Rhine to be in, being particularly weak re: the Cult. Yet really we have very little information in the Rhine book to go on for deciding one way or another.

If Vorsutus "is" the main thrust of such an initiative ... I would feel compelled to aggressively pursue him becoming a competent Mystagogue himself, and thus able to grow and foster the Cult membership expanding in numbers and power both.

I don't think it would be very difficult at all, if there were members of Durenmar who were also members of the Cult, to make use of it. But it would be hard to keep completely secret since there would also almost certainly be members of Durenmar who were not also Cult members.

Though the fact that it is the site of an ancient Temple could mean it conceals some secrets and/or could be a location specified by ancient Initiation Scripts or the like. That could raise issues for the Cult if there were Initiations that either needed adapted or to make use of the Temple that is now the Forum.

But as you say there are alternatives and for the sake of secrecy if nothing else there likely would be use of some other location under most circumstances.

I mainly bring it up due to topical relevance to our current discussion ... but it does have bearing on Vorsutus in other ways as well. :wink:

Re: Sanctum/Lab

I would like to posit a tower in an enclosed courtyard (otherwise surrounded by the Manor House), that Vorsutus could/would claim for his own. Given the description of the cave complex running variously throughout the under-levels of the area as well, I'd like to additionally posit a basement level that connects to the cave complex outside of the "danger zone" / walled off areas.

Which does raise the question ... how much underground real estate is there that is outside of the "dangerous" caves?

It’s just a matter of shifting year 1 to 1195, 2 to 1196… etc. ^^

Regarding the Cult: there are about 1000 magi in the Order. How many of these are part of the Cult? 50 (1/20)? 100 (1/10)? More? Less?

I tend to assume most cults are very secretive and small, with the Cult of Mercury being one of the largest ones, but yet small in comparison with the order. For example, I think 100 is too much (it would be larger than most houses).

There should be around 75~80 magi in Rhine. How many of these are to be part of the Cult for its presence to be considered strong? How many for it to be weak? How many for it to be average?

If there are 50 mercurians through the entire order, Rhine having 4 would be average. 10 would mean a fairly strong footprint. 2 (Vorsutus + another?) would be a weak one, but I honestly find it reasonable (maybe justifiable is the word) giving how I view Rhine's political situation.

But, this decision changes a bit the kind of stories Vorsutus will be in, so the kind of stories you want should also be a factor.

Vorsutus wants the whole tower for himself (plus a courtyard)? From a practical standpoint, this doesn’t seem feasible…

A tower could be a pretty small building (but if he sets the lab into the top part of the tower, will be annoying if he wants to make it bigger in the future).
And if i understood correctly, he wants to do it inside a preexisting courtyard or preexisting enclosed part of the manor buildings (and even doing it from zero, a courtyard can be something so basic as adding a wall around the tower, not much different than having his own orchard).
It would depend on the final description, but i don't think that its so crazy :slight_smile:

If you look at the map of the covenant, you'll see that there is a nhmber of independent towers in front of the main coumpound. The covenant doesn't have a wall around it, so doesn't really have large enclosed courtyards.

The larger the space he has, the more flaws it will have. The covenant doesn't have enough mundanes to keep all its buildings in good repair, and is very unlikely to have them at any time in the future. And the peculiar nature of the aura means that unused spaces them to change over time, so anyplace that the covenfolk haven't used regularly tend to... evolve indepedently. So if you pick a whole tower, it is possible that parts of it won't have stairs leading up to them, or no wimdows, or plants/fungi growing in it. Any basement level is won't connect to the cave system -- there seems to be only one point of entry for those.

Why is that? :open_mouth:

We must expect issues with out sanctums at the return of a long travel?

But he could build a tunnel, no? Secret passages are pretty cool :stuck_out_tongue:

I was thinking of this when I was describing what I would be trying to do. My takeaway from this and the descriptions of the grounds in other places was that there were multiple underground passages under the Covenant that were securely chokepointed / controlled for entry at the double doors that lead deeper underground into the more dangerous tunnels and a higher aura / regio the mysteries of which are not understood. That these underground passages had different/various entrances/exits which were undefined.

And that the sprawling/chaotic nature of the Manor (changing nature for that matter) lended itself to unusual configurations/arrangements in the house/grounds etc.

This seems to have previously established that there are the passages that I was interested in (which is why I asked) but that indeed the capacity of the Covenant (mundanely) at current to even service the existing structures is strained at best.

How much of an additional mundane capacity would be necessary to eliminate the shortfall?

How large is the Manor/Grounds re: a Structure Target? Size bumps required if you wanted to affect the whole thing?

Just to be clear, this comment was exactly because we are short staffed. A tower is huge (I'm assuming 6 floors). And eventually, when we do have enough covenfolk, we will probably have a demand for that space. But well...

This one I believe I can answer. To cover everything we use an Aegis with a +1 size (so, a boundary with close to 1000 paces in diameter). It's several scattered manors and structures.

But no idea regarding how many people we currently have and how many are necessary/reasonable.

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I think that Vorsutus isn't really a realistic candidate at this point in his development to be the center of such a Cult effort at affecting a Tribunal. More likely a Master or Archmagus would be such a figure and Vorsutus may have been recruited as part of their effort to join the Rhine, and then joined Tugurium.

Also those numbers would be for a fairly even distribution when arguably the Cult would be stronger in certain areas (Rome, Thebes, etc. areas where there was more Roman influence during the Empire) and weaker in others (Hibernia, Loch Leglean) that are considerably more culturally/magically removed. Provencal has a more significant presence and is just next door as it were. Whereas we here are geographically abutting Italy.

For myself I see hermetic politics and cult affairs to be a significant part of what Vorsutus was/is aimed at being involved in. But that can also be true with differing levels of Cult presence.

Of course such things largely still come down to a decision as to what we want to have in the Saga.

The towers mentioned previously were I think 3 floors, and I was positing one sub-floor. But that also includes Vorsutus, wife and three children, two grogs, and lab etc. So I didn't think it was very squandering of space as it were.

Regardless it doesn't seem like the designs/plans I was working up are coherent with the mental image of others at this point.

The issue still wouldnt be how many floors, but the diameter :stuck_out_tongue:

A lab with size +2 would need a 10m diameter tower (if it circular) or 8.5m side if its a square. And thats the max... its not a building so big at all.

If you add the sanctum (storage, personal room, pantry, study...) he already filled the 3 floors.

I had to check to make sure if you were talking about Amina (discovered you weren't).

I don't think they are incoherent. I just wasn't getting the right picture. For example, I was assuming Vorsutus indeed wanted the floor + basement + courtyard for himself, and picturing a 6-floor tower. 3/4 floors for lab + 3 bedrooms for himself and... 5/6 other people is very different.

Humm... I'll wait for Arthur's position on the height of the towers, it's also relevant to me (Regulus himself has taken the top two floors of one, one for lab, 1/2 for his room, 1/2 for his servants).

You are correct, sorry for my mistake. There is indeed a possibility that one of such entrances would be located in a tower where Vorsutus would have his sanctum.

It is impossible to completely eliminate it, by design. Due to the magical nature of the covenant and its aura, any improvement on an area that is not constantly in use will "migrate" to another part of the covenant.

But your characters may try anyway. :rofl:

During the early stages of covenant design, one of the players suggested that the covenant could be in the spirit of Gormenghast. Everyone loved the idea and we went that way. That part of the discussion starts there.

Think this (if somewhat smaller):

The confused nature of the buildings, some linked to each others and some not, mean that the whole covenant cannot be affected by a single T:Structure spell. Even affecting most of the primary structure, with all its wings and associated constructions, would probably require two or three additional magnitudes in Size. And it would probably still leave a few pockets of unaffected areas.

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If you look at the covenant map here, you'll notice two larger round structures, ont towards the top of the smanor and a second one standing alone slightly to the left. Both of these may very well be squat towers that might be suitable. The one near the top would be more likely to have an entrance to the caves.

2 posts were merged into an existing topic: Covenant Discussions (OOC)

I've never read Gormenghast (been tempted) but I've watched a show of it once, so that is interesting and amusing.

Perhaps either Craft Magic or Creo repairs could be done periodically to limit the deterioration/disruption caused by the shifting and limited repair capacity. Not to completely eliminate it (the cost and frequency given the shifting nature of the place would be prohibitive/warping I would think) but done every so often to make sure it doesn't become a serious problem in and of itself.

Since he seems somewhat fitting and apt in particular for Vorsutus (as a fellow pagan, Ex Misc, and practitioner of ways of hurting people from afar) perhaps Igor Rastvan (Rhine pg 109, in Roznov) would be a good candidate for this role. I could see an argument either way, since he seems quite motivated about deities that are not Greco-Roman. But ... there those among the Mercurians (like Vorsutus) that are syncretic enough that he could still find a home there perhaps. And/or be modified slightly.

He could be combining an attempt to build up the Cult with his other ambitions and/or using both to benefit one another etc.

If there are any other suggestions I'm amiable to them.

Otherwise I think perhaps the assumption that there are a few (undetermined) other members and sites would largely suit our purposes and leave room for growing things further through play.

I think Igor makes sense as the local head of the cult. There might also be someone from house Mercere in Basel, or close to it.

Is there anyone already set on running mercurian stories (as I mentioned in the character creation discussions topic, I'm not really of much help with it because I don't have a lot of love for the cult of mercury...)? That person's input would be fundamental, I think.

I do have a couple of ideas involving old mercurian ruins, but I'd rather not be the one to set the tone of something I don't intend to delve too deep into.

(Also, I'm shooting in every direction already. I need to leave some room for other people to run stories. =P)

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Might 15 (Animal)

Virtues & Flaws

Virtues and Flaws:

V: Gift of Tongues (1), Independent Study (1), Regio Network: Auram (1), Second Sight (1)

True Friend: Vorsutus (Familiar)

F: Busybody (1), Avaricious (Shinies!)(3)



Int +2
Per +2
Pre +1
Com +1
Str -6
Sta +2
Dex +1
Qik +5

Personal Details

Season: Summer
Confidence: 1 (3)

Personality Traits:

Loyal: +3
Brave: -2
Loquacious +6
Inquisitive +3
Shinies! +6

Magic Qualities & Inferiorities

Magic Qualities and Inferiorities:

Gift of Speech (1)
Improved Abilities (x2)(2)
Improved Characteristics (x1)(1)
Lesser Power (x3)(3)
Personal Power (x9)(9)
Improved Powers (x3)(3)
Unaffected by the Gift (1)

Susceptible to Deprivation (1)
Reduced Might (x4)(4)



Athletics: (Spc: Flying) 4 (50xp)
Awareness: (Spc: Shiny Objects) 4 (50xp)
Brawl: (Spc: Dodging) 3 (30xp)
Faerie Lore: (Spc: Regiones) 4 (50xp)
Hunt: (Spc: Tracking) 3 (30xp)
Magic Lore: (Spc: Regiones) 4 (50xp)
Second Sight: (Spc: Illusions) 5 (75xp)
Stealth: (Spc: In Flight) 4 (50xp)
Survival: (Spc: Forests) 3 (30xp)

Area Lore: European Magical Sites: (Spc: Regiones) 4 (50xp)

Combat Notes

Dodge: (Init: +5)(Atk: -)(Def: +4)(Dmg: -)
Beak: (Init: +5)(Atk: -)(Def: +4)(Dmg: -)

Note: Unsure on some math here, will revisit later.

Fatigue Levels: (Fresh)(Winded)(Weary: -1)(Tired: -3)(Dazed: -5)(Unconscious)
Wound Penalties: L(-1/1), M(-2/2), H(-3/3), I(4)


"Hands of the Magical Animal - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Hands of the Magical Animal

ReTe 15
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
As RoP:M pg 39.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Constant)
(Personal Power)

"Invisible Hand of the Thief - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Invisible Hand of the Thief

ReTe 20
R: Sight, D: Mom, T: Ind
As MoH pg 93.
(Base 4, +3 Sight, +1 affect restrained objects, +1 50 paces of transportation)
(Lesser Power, -2 Might)

Sight of the Boundaries & Treasures - Cost:Zero / Pen: +15

Sight of the Boundaries & Treasures

InVi 20
R: Per, D: Conc, T: Vision
Provides sight which detects the mystical Auras and Vis of both Magic and Faerie Realms.
(Base: 1, +1 Conc, +4 Vision, +2 Additional Effects (+Realm, +Vis))
(Personal Power, -2 Might)

"Piercing the Boundaries of Magic & Faerie - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Piercing the Boundaries of Magic & Faerie

InVi 25
R: Per, D: Conc, T: Vision
As "Piercing The Faerie Veil" (ArM5 pg 158), applying to both Magic and Faerie Regiones.
(Base: 3, +1 Conc, +4 Vision)
(Personal Power, -3 Might)

"Crossing All Boundaries - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Crossing All Boundaries

ReAn(Vi) 20
R: Per, D: Mom, T: Ind
Teleports the user up to 50 paces to place that is visible or to which they have an Arcane Connection. The Vim Requisite allows the teleportation to cross through the Boundaries of Regiones as long as the Regio layers can be perceived through by other spells/powers or a suitable Arcane Connection is possessed.
(Base: 15, +1 Vim Requisite)
(Personal Power, -2 Might)

"Wings of Shadowed Silence - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Wings of Shadowed Silence

PeIm 20
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
Completely eliminates images/sensory output of target causing it generate sensory impressions of sight, sound, smell, or touch.
(Base 5 (Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch), +2 Sun, +1 Moving/Adaptive Images)
(Personal Power, -1 Might)

Always A Favorable Wind - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Always A Favorable Wind

Cr(Re)Au 35
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
While active this effect provides a powerful wing to support and augment the natural flying of the target. This wind adjusts and turns with the target to always be favorable to their aerial manuevers, providing a +X bonus to any rolls related to flying or dodging while airborne. Sustained flight under the benefit of this effect is boosted to approximately 40 mph, and is significantly less tiring. The target can end the effect at any time.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Complexity (able to end), +1 Slightly Unnatural, +1 Rego requisite)
(Lesser Power, -4 Might)

"Eyes of the Allfather - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Eyes of the Allfather

InIm 30
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Vision
As ArM5 pg 145, with the additional effect that Hearing can be employed similarly as if 1 foot away from any point observed.
(Base 3, +2 Sun, +4 Vision, +1 Second Effect (Hearing))
(Personal Power, -3 Might)

Sense of the Watcher - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Sense of the Watcher

InMe(An) 40
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Hearing
As Hunter's Sense (ArM5 pg 118), adjusted up to Base 5 (from Mentem), and applying to both Humans and Animals.
(Base 5, +2 Sun, +3 Hearing, +1 for shape and primary motivation, +1 Animal Requisite)
(Personal Power, -4 Might)

Sight of the Active Magics - Cost: Zero / Pen: +15

Sight of the Active Magics

InVi 45
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Vision
As ArM5 pg 159, adjusted to Sun.
(Base 5, +2 Sun, +4 Vision, +2 Techniques and Forms)
(Personal Power, -5 Might)

Advancement Log:

Since this is the character creation thread, I'd like to see the process of creating Skepsi. What Might did you start from? Is this a grog-level magical animal, or companion-level? For that matter, what kind of animal is it? (You may have mentionned it in a previous post, but I can't remember and don't want to search for it.)

Is it for your familiar? Someone else's familiar? If so, whom?