For Development. Character Development. 
@Emelric
Characteristics
Int: +2
Per: 0
Pre: +2
Com: +2
Str: 0
Sta: +1
Dex: 0
Qik: 0
Virtues
0) The Gift
0) Hermetic Magus
+1) Improved Characteristics
+1) Puissant Folk Ken
+1) Puissant Bargain
+1) Well Traveled
+1) Inoffensive to Magical Beings
+1) Alluring to Magical Beings
+1) Student of Magic
+3) Elemental Magic
0) Gairm (Corrguineach Sihr equivalent - name not canon, so we can just call it Sihr instead if preferred)
0) Minor magical focus: warding against spirits (all realms)
Flaws
-3) Driven (expunge surviving Diedne in Hibernia)
-3) Plagued by Supernatural Entity: Details TBD
-3) Vulnerable Magic (spells fail if target crosses running water)
-1) Seeker
Abilities
Total xp = 440
- Childhood: 45
- Early years (6-12): 105
- Apprenticeship: 240
- Well-Traveled: 50
Childhood
WIP
Before I get further into defining abilities and Arts, I'd like to check on something with you all. The Sihr summoning of spirits starts with either 1) a way of seing spirits directly (spells or Second Sight), or 2) casing a place for an hour and making an Int + Area Lore roll vs. 6. If going with option 2), how granular does that Area Lore need to be? For example, if my character is trying to find a Might 5 water spirit that lives in a pond near the town of Tralee, does he need to use Area Lore (Hibernia), Area Lore (Munster), Area Lore (Kerry), or Area Lore (Tralee area)? This is more or less getting at a power scaling mechanism. Both Second Sight- and spell-based detection have to penetrate, so detecting higher Might spirits will be out of reach until enough xp has been accumulated. Area Lore can have a similar mechanism if we require higher granularity - xp must be accumulated in specific areas of Ireland to detect spirits there. But there is no direct link to spirit Might. Do you have a preference for how to approach this aspect? I'm okay with either, but would prefer to commit to one or the other (Area Lore or spells).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Second Sight doesn't need to penetrate, unless something has changed? There's a reason why it's such a handy little ability. So it over spells is what I'd go with.
That said, our general rule of thumb when it comes to area lores is this: the smaller the area covered by the lore, the more information you know. Which means you ultimately need a lower score to accomplish whatever you're after. So make of that as you will?
That said, I know it sounds crazy, but have you considered the Social Contacts virtue? Take it for magical spirits. Boom, you know spirits all around Hibernia!
Second Sight
Lets review the description first.
Second Sight: ArM5DE pg 170
Second Sight*: You are able to see through illusionary concealment and disguise, including invisibility, and can also see naturally invisible things such as spirits and the boundaries between regio levels (see page 420). The Ease Factor to see through illusionary concealment is normally equal to 6 + the magnitude of the might of the creature responsible for the effect, or 6 + the magnitude of a Hermetic spell. In general, this Virtue allows you to see through Hermetic concealment effected with Imaginem, but not other Forms. The Magic Resistance, if any, of the concealed creature does not interfere with your Second Sight. If something is actually transformed, for example by a MuCo spell, you cannot determine the genuine form. The Ease Factor to see a naturally invisible thing is normally 9, and the Ease Factor for seeing regio levels is specified on page 421. All Second Sight rolls are Perception + Second Sight, and they are almost always simple rolls.
So here is a sentence from that description that I think is doing a lot of heavy lifting:
The Magic Resistance, if any, of the concealed creature does not interfere with your Second Sight
Thus Second Sight is explicitly exempted from needing to Penetrate, but does have Ease Factors it needs to hit in order to detect things.
Area Lores
I second @Nithyn here. My view is that the more specific your Area Lore definition is the easier of a time you should have exercising it with its proper scope. If you are going beyond the scope a little bit (asking about an immediately neighboring area for example) you would take penalties. Too far beyond the scope and you wouldn't be able to use it. With a broader definition you don't have problems of scope you have problems of specificity. If you have say Area Lore: Hibernia you have zero scope problems (at least inside Hibernia), but your knowledge is so broad that you don't really know about a particular village or landmark unless they are noteworthy from the perspective of knowing about the all of Hibernia and would be considered a famous/noteworthy location.
I would also suggest looking over City & Guild page 83, where Area Lore target numbers are examined in detail.
Hope this helps! If you have questions or suggestions about specific Area Lore definitions, lets hear them and hash it out! You are perfectly free to make up your own Area Lores and use them, we just should all discuss it and make sure we understand what it means ahead of time. Nothing ruins gameplay like discovering different ideas about things in the middle of a conflict oriented scene or a scene with stakes.
How about proceeding next with a discussion of these selections and how you see them relating to the character to be recorded here. Also any material from your previous posts relating to how you see the character's motivations/goals and background that you consider still relevant should be reposted here where it can be available specifically related to your character rather than lost in the threads of general discussion.
I don't see any problems with your selections at all so far, so you are certainly free to proceed with character creation.
@Emelric Just checking on you!
Hi, I'm back! Sorry for the long spell away.
Thanks for clearing up my mistatement around Second Sight needing to penetrate. Coming back to the different ways of discerning spirits, I'm now leaning toward giving the character Second Sight, since it's the more flexible approach. To confirm though, would the ease factor just be 9, corresponding to naturally invisible things, regardless of the Might of the spirit?
I did come up with a scheme though, that fleshes out the Area Lore approach that the character could still use as a fallback.
Step 1: SG determines Notoriety of the spirit through the following scoring approach
-
Visibility of effects (0–2): Does the spirit do anything people would notice and talk about? 0 = subtle/no manifestation, 1 = occasional odd occurrences locals attribute to it, 2 = regular, dramatic, or seasonal manifestations
-
Site traffic (0–2): How many people pass through or visit? 0 = remote, nobody goes there, 1 = local traffic only (farmers, fisherfolk), 2 = pilgrims, fairs, major roads, or trade routes cross it
-
Folklore embedding (0–2): Is it part of stories people tell? 0 = no lore attached, 1 = a local tale or two, 2 = tied to a named legendary figure, saint's story, or widely retold myth
-
Age/continuity (0–2): 0 = arrived recently or intermittently present, 1 = generations, 2 = "it's always been there," ancient and stable enough that it's part of the landscape's identity
Convert total to Notoriety tier:
- 0 → Concealed (spirit is actively hidden, new to an area, or dangerous enough that even inquiring draws a suppressive response)
- 1–2 → Guarded/taboo (spirit is known by locals, but they avoid discussing it with outsiders, out of fear or superstition)
- 3–4 → Town/Village-known
- 5 → County/District-known
- 6–7 → Province/Region-known
- 8 → Tribunal/Kingdom-known
Step 2: determine ease factor based on Notoriety and scope of Area Lore used.
| Spirit Notoriety | EF for Area Lore: Tribunal/Kingdom | EF for Area Lore: Province/Region | EF for Area Lore: County/District | EF for Area Lore: Town/Village |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tribunal/Kingdom-known | 6 | 3 | 3 | 3 |
| Province/Region-known | 9 | 6 | 3 | 3 |
| County/District-known | 12 | 9 | 6 | 3 |
| Town/Village-known | 15 | 12 | 9 | 6 |
| Guarded/Taboo | 18 | 15 | 12 | 9 |
| Concealed | 21 | 18 | 15 | 12 |
Values are based on EF = 6 for matching Notoriety and Area Lore scopes, since that's what's stated in the Sihr section of HoH:S (pg 135, I think), but we can adjust numbers if something else makes more sense.
The Area Lore used must cover an area that includes the habitat of the spirit, for the above numbers to apply. Area Lores that cover areas directly adjacent to that of the habitat can also be used, but this situation increases each ease factor in the table by 3 (or 6?).
Last question for today: the Longmist Corrguineach magi in Through the Aegis have Minor Magical Focus: Elemental spirits as the minor Hermetic virtue of the tradition, which I feel is redundant with the summoning/bargaining aspects of the Sihr/Gairm Ability. Is it ok to deviate from that precedent, and go instead with Minor Magical Focus: warding against spirits?
No problem!
If the only reason you can't see it is because it is a spirit, yes, ease factor 9 is the only number you need to hit.
If something is concealing itself with some sort of power/magical effect, then you need to roll against the effective magnitude of that effect/power using the 6 + magnitude rule for Second Sight. I would typically count this as "effective magnitude" rather than simply spell level. If the effect for example had some kind of level doubling or the like for what its effectiveness is you have to defeat the doubled level.
Also as a Supernatural Ability you should perhaps read through section on those in Societates starting on page 103.
Second Sight is generally superior to say Intellego Vim spells/effects to perceive spirits or the like expressly because, as we have now noted, it doesn't have to penetrate and the relative Might of the creature doesn't matter. Whereas while you "can" detect Might Creatures with Intellego Vim, you will only see the ones that you Penetrate on usually.
I will look through your Area Lore proposal soon!
Your spirit location/lore matrix is pretty nifty I think. Approved as is.
So I think it really depends but I think a Minor Focus in Warding vs Spirits is perhaps a bit narrow. Before digging into this I'll quote my own preferences regarding Magical Foci from the House Rules.
Yes this is contrary to a variety of Magical Foci that are in the game. I try to be flexible with themes of effect because I know it is challenging at times but a Minor Focus in say Swords being used to anything and everything in a class of items annoys me.
Back to the Magical Foci you were talking about.
A Major Focus could be something like Spirit Magic that would cover any all types of spells that have anything to do with Spirits at all. This would be reminiscent of the Tytalus Titanoi described Major Focus in Spirits, just described as a theme instead.
The Minor Focus in Elemental Spirits I would tend to regard, using the same logic, as better described as a Minor Focus in Elemental Spirit Magic. The same sort of theme but restricted being applied to dealing with any Spirit associated with the Elemental Forms (but potentially of any Realm). Whereas another common one I've seen many times is a Minor Focus in Magic Realm Spirit Magic, to be doing any sort of Spirit Magic with any Magic Realm spirit, and not with spirits of other Realms. All of these are a little different from one another but have overlaps and different gaps.
A Minor Focus in Warding vs Spirits would in theory apply to any sort of spirit from any Realm. And you can do that if you want to.
However I would also point out that a Minor Focus in Elemental Spirit Magic covers types of spirits that Sihr/Gairm does not. Sihr mechanically focuses on Genus Loci which are spirits of places/locations. They are a particular type of spirit but there are lots of other types of spirits potentially associated with Elemental Spirit Magic, which the focus would also apply to if you were interacting with those. You also might consider Hermetic Theurgy which would let you research spells specifically to summon spirits associated with spell powers from different Forms etc. This would be another way to get mileage out of having a Minor Focus in Elemental Spirit Magic.
Kind of an info dump already, so I'll stop here and you can let me know if you have any further questions.
Before you guys go on, I'll just take this chance to commend the Notoriety guidelines and EF for Area Lore X Notoriety matrix. Very solid work. 10/10 will steal for my next games.
I must agree!
While rereading parts of The Contested Isle I noticed an inset regarding Area Lores which I think will keenly interest you.
So I think we could make exceptions to this perhaps for major cities like Dublin or Athlone (in my setting), that are especially more complex major locations. Perhaps for Covenants if someone was particularly interested.
However overall this would tell us that an Area Lore: Hibernia is deemed sufficient to meet the needs of most people. I don't see any reason to think that wouldn't apply for Conall as well. And ... comparatively they are right, Hibernia is not geographically that large.
A quick example of this I intended to mention previously would be Hermetic guidelines for controlling, summoning, and warding vs spirits.
A focus in Elemental Spirit Magic would apply to using either of these, or for any of the other Elemental Forms. Or warding vs elemental spirits. None of which Sihr does.
Summoners are interesting.
Hey @Emelric, just putting all this back on your radar when you get a chance!
And we're back again!
After some more reading, I'm good to go with a Minor Magical Focus in elemental spirit magic, where those elemental spirits can be of any Realm. And yes, Hermetic Theurgy, particularly the mysteries related to summoning aspects of Daimons, could be something that he pursues as he attempts to scale the Might of the spirits that he summons and bargains with via spells vs. Gairm. There are some interesting virtues in the Hermetic Spirit Magic chapter too.
Thanks also for sharing the text on Area Lore in Hibernia. I hadn't appreciated the actual scale of the island. It still seems like there should be some kind of scaling of Ease Factors though, in addition to the complexity-of-location factor, to account for how widely known a spirit is. But practically speaking, with Second Sight now part of the character's capabilities, he'll have to depend less on Area Lore for discerning the nature and strength of spirits to summon with Gairm. I'll end up putting less XP into Area Lore as a result.
I've started a backstory for the character, which also provides an explanation of where his virtues and flaws come from and how they are related to his concept. Still to do:
- Define Supernatural Nuissance & Driven flaws, and how & why he became a Seeker
- Describe his Macgnímartha
- Revisit his goals and motivations
Background Part I
Conall was born in a scattered farming community within the parish of Dún Fhíní (Doonfeeny) on the wild Atlantic coast of north Mayo, where the blanket bog of the Céide stretched inland like a great sea of moss and mist. His people belonged to the kingdom of Tír Amhalgaidh, under the protection of the Ó Dubhda kings. They were free Gaelic farmers, raising hardy cattle and sheep on thin soils, cutting peat for fuel, fishing the nearby coast, and tending narrow strips of cultivated land reclaimed from the edge of the bog. Life followed the rhythm of saints' feast days, cattle births, storm seasons, and harvests, but older customs lingered quietly beside Christian devotion. Every household observed traditions whose origins no one could place. The first butter of spring was left upon a flat stone near the bog. Certain wells were greeted a specific way before water was drawn. Particular hummocks were never crossed after sunset, and no one cut peat from a handful of places said to be "claimed already." The elders spoke of these practices only enough to ensure they were followed.
When Conall was four years old, he wandered into the bog and vanished. The search lasted until dusk. Men crossed paths that no one willingly walked. Some women prayed at the church of Doonfeeny, while others left offerings at the old stone where butter had always been placed. At sunrise he was found sleeping on a flat offering stone perched atop a dry rise deep within the peat, untouched by cold or hunger. No footprints led to him. The priest thanked God. His grandmother quietly returned the offering stone to its proper place. No one spoke of it again.
As Conall grew, so too did the discomfort that typically results from the Gift. Dogs barked when he approached. Neighbors and eventually family stopped meeting his eyes. Nothing dramatic enough to cause accusation, only enough to leave a child wondering why every place initially full of chatter seemed to become quieter after he arrived. He learned to watch people, trying to read what they were thinking or what was veiled behind their words. Thus he developed Puissant Folk Ken, practicing it simply to understand why the world treated him differently.
Several years later, a wandering magus of House Ex Miscellanea came to Doonfeeny. He was known locally not as a wizard but as a learned wanderer who settled disputes between neighboring clans, blessed wells, and spoke respectfully with the invisible powers that country folk preferred not to name. He belonged to the Corrguineach, a tradition that dealt for hundreds of years with the elemental spirits of Ireland. Unlike many magi, his Gentle Gift allowed him to move among ordinary people without inspiring instinctive revulsion. Even so, Conall's parents distrusted him. Stories of magicians carrying children away were old in Ireland, and no family willingly surrendered a son to a stranger. What changed their minds was not persuasion but recognition. The magus described, in remarkable detail, the place where Conall had been found years earlier. He knew of the untouched hummock, the ancient offering stone, and customs the family had never spoken of outside their own kin. Finally he told them, solemnly, that if Conall remained, the Gift would only isolate him further. His neighbors would fear him, and he would never understand why. After many nights of discussion, and after consulting both priest and brehon, the family agreed. Outwardly, it was fosterage. In truth, it was an apprenticeship, with no promise that their son would return. Conall never forgot the look on his mother's face as he left - mostly sadness, but also some relief.
Not long afterward, his pater brought him alone into the heart of the Céide bog. There they met the ancient spirits that dwelt beneath the peat. There was no single genius loci of water or earth. Millennia of offerings of weapons and foes, forgotten burials, drowned forests, and buried fields had made this location something older and stronger - an inseparable assembly of spirits of dense earth, acidic water, mist-filled air, and lightning-sparked bog flame. His pater spoke with them for hours. But Conall was never allowed close enough to hear the words. When they departed, his pater merely said: "Some bargains are inherited before they are understood. You'll learn more, in time."
From that bargain, Conall found that he could perceive spirits naturally, using the Second Sight. Some regarded him with curiosity. Others with recognition. A few greeted him as though they had expected him for years. He focused on learning how to interact with them in a way that took advantage of the affinity that they seemed to have for him (Inoffensive + Alluring to Magical Beings). As he began his Hermetic studies, he discovered a noteworthy intuition for connections between the Elemental Forms (Elemental Magic), and his knowledge of those Arts progressed rapidly. So too did he find that he had gained the ability to summon and bargain with elemental genii loci, and to affect elemental spirits with his spells (Gairm (Sihr Supernatural Virtue equivalent) & Minor Magical Focus in elemental spirits - House virtues).
Conall did not spend his apprenticeship solely within the walls of a covenant. His pater taught that books may preserve knowledge, but the land preserves truth, and that he must walk the land to understand that truth. His education unfolded across Hibernia: sleeping in monasteries one season and shepherds' huts the next, walking old drove roads, crossing mountain passes, following rivers to their sources, and listening wherever spirits still remembered forgotten agreements between people and place. His pater insisted that every negotiation begin with listening. A spirit was asked what it wanted before it was asked for anything in return. A farmer's concerns mattered as much as a magus's, and must be heard. It was during these years that Conall began to practice diplomatic bargaining with spirits and, to a lesser extent due to his Gift, with mundanes, (Puissant Bargain). He also grew his knowledge of Ireland's many history-rich places and their inhabitants (Well Traveled). His training was grueling, as he was forced to cram in his lessons between journeys, but it forged in him stronger innate capabilities (Improved Characteristics).
During the first period of his apprenticeship, Conall gradually discovered that the bargain struck in the bog had left him with some adverse effects. His ability with four of the five Techniques grew readily, but whenever he sought to practice Perdo, the spells seemed to resist him (Deficient Perdo). His pater seemed unsurprised. "Yes, this was the first cost, the first of three," he stated, providing no further explanation despite Conall’s persistent questioning.
The second revealed itself years later, during one of the long journeys that defined his apprenticeship. Before setting out across the bog, he had cast a simple spell to lighten the burden of his pack. Without warning, the enchantment vanished as he waded across a shallow stream. The weight of his pack returned all at once, nearly pitching him backward into the water. Confused, he recast the spell once he recovered on the far bank of the stream, only to have it unravel again at the next crossing. Gradually, the pattern proved unmistakable. Whenever crossing running water, his magic - any type of spell, whether cast upon himself or another - failed as though the stream washed it away (Vulnerable Magic). His pater merely nodded when Conall confronted him with the discovery. "You have learned the second of the bargain's costs," he said. Conall never learned whether these limitations had been demanded as payment by the ancient bog spirits, accepted as a necessary consequence, or simply reflected their nature. To him, they became a reminder that relationships with the Magic Realm carry consequences as well as gifts. And he dreaded what the third cost might be.
To be continued.
Glad to have helped! I think Elemental Spirit Magic is a good choice.
I concur regarding Area Lores. I think generally just bearing in mind that Ireland is relatively smaller compared to other Tribunal Settings should be sufficient, but it doesn't meant there isn't a place for dedicated Lores of particular locations that might warrant it individually.