Charged item: Salt from the Palace

How do your see this charged item?

Well, it would be CrTe, not CrAq. The CrAq Guideline regarding "poisons" must, by definition, refer to liquid poisons - parallel Guidelines can be judged for Aurum and Terram, and possibly Animal (depending on the animal poison, I would not let it go as a generic "animal product", but that's me).

Also, "Penetration" would be to create (Creo) the salt in a specific place (say, in an area with Parma Magica). Once created, I'm not sure it would then enjoy the same Penetration later if swallowed by a mage or other creature w/ MR.

It's based by liquid just like the Spell Last Flight of Phoenix that is personal, the salt sweat the poison that is a liquid, just like the body of a magi burn with the spell from HoHS page 37. If the salt were poisonus that should be Muto, the salt is not poisonous, it is the fount of the poison.

I don't see how a Range:Personal Ignem spell relates to the distinction between Aquam and Terram. That spell creates Fire, so is Creo Ignem.

Salt is Terram. If you want poisonous salt, that's also Terram.

Aquam is liquid. This spell does not create any "liquid".

It's not "Muto" because you are not "changing", you are "creating". If you wanted to change existing salt into poisonous salt, that would be Muto - but that's not what is described.

I don't see how there can be any confusion over that. :confused:


Are you saying that the "charged item" creates "magical" salt - and then that salt creates a poison? (And that magical poison then has a Penetration?)

That is... probably outside normal Hermetic Limits. It's certainly pushing the limits of most any SG.

Not: the salt is enchanted to sweat a liquid that is posionous, the salt is the fount of the venom not venomous itself, and the poison is soaked on the salt, jsut like the earth soak the rain. It's a element based on Aquam just like the fire from the body of the spell of CrIg, but soaked on the salt and after it sweats or it oozes the posion.
I could say that the salt explodes or elect other thing like a sponge or another liquid.
If many people give their opinion i chage it to a mor common touch range.

As I look at it, the enchantment takes previously existing salt, makes it a charge item that, when it is swallowed, starts to create a liquid poison that does the damage.

The Range: Personal, threw me for a bit. If you take a pot, enchant it to exude pure water when it is held in the hands of a person, then the question is does personal range cover the effect? The question I suppose is, when a item is made the spell is considered personal to the item, so if the spell does something like create a liquid, then the item makes the liquid on it's surface? For example Footsteps of the Slippery yadda yadda is Range: Touch.

The item would need the condition requirement, yes?

Your point is like the discussions about if a bell or flutte can carry Range Voice with theirs natural sounds, or if on another no sound maker a effect to produce it could carry it...
Any person knows that some object can soak liquids, just like the bread, one sponge, the clay or the salt; and cause that i created that Charged item: inside the salt is created a liquid that oozes out whe is created, on the moment of activation or maybe after, but it's not possible before to say if there are poison, cause there aren't any.
The efect trigger when the salt is inside a stomach with ffo, just like any action can trigger a enchanted item.
And before of that i must say it, i thought a similar charged item with the same range: an arrrow that explode on a lightning.

Ah - so "salt" really doesn't matter. The item could make anything sweat the poison, but "salt" is your choice here - got it.

So the salt sweats a slow poison, and that poison then has a Penetration...

Maybe, but probably not.

The problem is that (within normal Hermetic limits) you cannot have an effect that causes an item to later create a second magical effect. (The 1st effect is the creation (or change), the 2nd wants the Penetration attached to it.)

A mage could use CreoAquam to create (liquid) poison, and put that poison anywhere - but that's not what's going on. (And they could always put that poison "inside" something, so that it's released later.)

A mage might be able to use CrAq to make the salt sweat (magical) poison over time - but that's creating stuff long after the spell is cast... I would not be perfectly comfortable with that, but maybe. ysmv sort of thing.

A mage might use Muto Terram to change salt to sweat (non-magical?) poison - a very unnatural change, but possible. That would work, but the salt could not then sweat "magical" poison, with Penetration.

As for the Penetration - a mage can't do that either, not as described, not either way.

The salt cannot create any Penetration, because the salt is not casting another spell of its own, and that's when Penetration happens. Penetration makes the basic effect work vs. Magic Resistance, so here any "penetration" allows the creation of the poison, even in an Aegis. That is what Penetration does, it makes the effect work vs. MR - and "the effect" is Creo, creation (or possibly Muto). But once that salt starts sweating poison - no effect is being cast, so no Penetration involved, too late for that.

To get the Penetration on the Poison, a mage creates a charged item that is the Poison, so the magical effect is the poison itself, and then gets that charged item onto the salt, somehow.

So... I don''t think so, no. Sorry. :frowning:

My favorite poisons are all Muto:

Turn sth big into sth small and edible. Have someone eat it. Wait till the spell expires. Have someone clean up the mess.

Any effect needs penetration to beat MR, including a Muto Terram effect to any effect... Or any magically created harming thing... It's important to work, but to beat a Magic resistance. I don't get the point yours about the Penetration. The Penetration is for the effect, in this case the poison, just like on spellcasting. The same is true with any magical object. I remember: one magi from MoH had spells to grant a property no harming, but that made that the swords and enemy weapons needed beat his MR, with a Penetration of 0. The penetration by that and alll rules comes from to any effect by duration. And this is not a spell, it is a charged item, a charged item can create things, change their properties, or any Spell Guidelines that is not Ritual. I don't see that thing that you say:

Then can't you create a firebreather staff because the encanthment creates something? It's the same effect, the liquid naturally oozes or something wet of some liquid sweat, my spell only creates the liquid inside the salt that after sweat. And I still saying, anything that can soak liquids and it can oozes them should use the Range Personal, specially on a slow effect how this. For example, one magi could cret a harming liquid inside him with Range Personal and Objective part, and if it could kill him, but any on duration could intoxicate touching or tasting his blood.
I called salt the enchantment because it is soaking and this item is a "salty" thing to life in court, it's like to say "tasting" or "interesting". I can create it in the sense to taste this idea, if it isn't good, i add touch range and finished. Or take one apple, that is juiced... you bite and the poison is created on the fruit... Really i sorry because i am not a naturaly english user, then i can't explain it normally.

Changed to evade polemics. Range is now Touch and the final Level is CrAq 36.

Why don't you just let the salt be the poison, as a charged PeCo item?

Because this is thought to work againts any beings without importance of the Size: horses, gigants and so on.

Humm... The author is describing a charged item, not a spell, so yes he can.

Like others, I'm not comfortable with Range: Personal, Touch seems better here; and the Solar (meaning Sun I guess ?) duration is a particularly nasty touch (lower t touch, not upper T Touch) :wink:

I think in that case I'd just fudge the Perdo and size rules, perhaps doing one less level of damage for each increased size. That's the way I'd handle a "real" (created) poison too if an oversized being took it. Using Creo to create a Perdo effect is too complicated.

Tengo que escribir en mi idioma porque esto ya me está tocando los mismísimos... ¿De qué diablos me estás hablando?

The ulcers are the description of the effect of the venom, that is the light wound and can be resisted to +9.

The base ease factor is +3, +3 by 2 Magnitudes is +9. Thats are the rules!
Rules from Ars Magica 5th Edition Core rules second printing, page 121:

This are the rules!

I like it. So you have a charged item, in the form of some salt. Your target uses the salt, which triggers the effect, which poisons the target, which causes the minor wound. What's not to like? Unless you're on the receiving end, of course.

So, if I have this right:

CrAq 30
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Individual
This charged device in the form of salt creates a single dose of poison in the stomach of the target that inflicts a minor wound if the target ingesting the poison fails a Stamina roll against Ease Factor 9.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 for Ease Factor of 9)

The trigger action would have to be the use of the salt or its consumption if you can persuade your storyguide. An environmental trigger, to detect the change from being outside a stomach to being inside, isn't available as a +3 modifier as per the rules on magically-significant environmental changes. If I were running the saga, I might let you have that as a +5 modifier if you experimented for it.

I've left out the penetration, but that's easily applied (as has already been done in one of the blocks I saw). Depending on who your targets are though, you might want to boost the penetration so that it exceeds those pesky Relic + Dominion Aura resistance levels. And if you want to take out someone significant, you might want to increase the wound level.

Just one thing though... I don't have an answer to this: Would the duration need to be Sun? Wouldn't Momentary do? I mean, once the poison has been created, it does its job in that moment (essentially the space of a combat round) and then it is superfluous; you don't need it.

Something for wiser heads than mine to comment on.

The Sun is just like Spells that creates another types of harming things, the effect is not continously created? Just like the fire on or one rock over somebody?
If that is very much difficult i remove the Duration. Then is more easy too.

for a device, might as well remove the duration - all it does is prevent the wound from healing while active. :slight_smile:

Ok, then after i change it.