Thank-you for doing that. Timewise I think probably Autumn, as that has the advantage of Fray becoming eligible for membership. But happy to get Viola's story running earlier than that - let me know when she wants to initiate it.
Looking at the covenant vis stocks - how do we have 4 pawns of Mentem in them? I didn't think we had an appropriate vis source, and the only one-off sources I can think of were the rabbit (which went directly to Gregorius and Fray) and the vis trade Gregorius set-up (which went directly to Gregorius, given he was trading his vis).
We started with a certain amount of vis--not just the big piles for the Aegis and creating the lab equipment.
Scott
From memory, the starting split was 50 pawns of Vim, 25 pawns of Corpus and 5 pawns of each Technique.
Maybe we traded for the Mentem?
EDIT: Never mind--see the "Character Development" thread. We did indeed trade for 2 pawns of Mentem, but I accidentally executed the trade twice.
Scott
Did we get the covenant wall built (and paid for)? (Letter from the Tremere Exarch here for reference: https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/card-board-games-archive-links/116/1)
I'm happy to say yes, but could you give me the reference again on pricing?
Scott
I'm not sure we've actually discussed pricing in any detail previously.
I think the basic spell is Base 3 (create stone) + 1 Touch + 0 Mom + 5(?) size + 1(?) complexity = 30, so 6 pawns of vis (assuming the architect isn't a Mercurian, which wouldn't be that unlikely). In addition to that, there's potentially payment for the architect's time, plus any profit he / the Tremere are trying to make, less any "charity" they're giving us.
I was thinking there were pricing guidelines somewhere, like maybe in the Verditius section?
Scott
The Verditius pricing guidelines are 3 x vis cost (HoH:MC pg 114). I think we did discuss extending them to stat boosting rituals, on the basis that whilst they didn't inherently require season(s) of work, they were a relatively rare and in high demand.
Another reference is that Mercere usually pay 1 pawn per 10 levels of effect in an enchanted device, plus vis cost (HoH:TL pg 88).
Let's call it 10, since someone has to trek out here to do it, but it doesn't take the time of lab work. That'll be 4 Creo and 2 Terram for the wall itself. What do you propose giving the architect for the remaining 4? He'd prefer Creo.
Scott
Do we have 2 Terram at the point the architect's building the wall? They were meant to be arriving before the end of 1228, so whilst we can owe it, I wouldn't have thought we'd have harvested two pawns by the time they're casting. Note that Gregorius did warn in his letter that the covenant didn't have much Terram vis, so was expecting that the architect would bring his own / the Tremere's vis and then get recompensed in other Arts.
Gregorius' preferred Art of payment is Perdo, because we get 3 pawns a year of it and no-one on the covenant has expressed any interest in it. That said, he's willing to put in some Creo as well (but probably not a full 9 pawns). He'd resist trading the Intellego, Muto or Rego, the former two because we don't have any source and the latter because it seems to be in high demand. Of the Forms, he'd prefer to avoid putting in Corpus because he'd like a stockpile for emergencies, but that's somewhat mitigated by the fact that nobody actually has any useful rituals for such. Vim he's reasonably willing to trade, but would prefer Perdo or Creo.
Someone should learn some CrCo rituals--that's what that pile of Corpus vis is for.
The architect is going to insist, at the very least, that the covenant supply the vis for the ritual itself, and we should have at least one Terram pawn by then; we can then add five pawns of Creo. He's not wild about the Perdo, and will want more if that's what the covenant insists on giving him.
Scott
The Creo Corpus rituals is where Wishbone is heading, hence the Corpus reading on his planned activity
I'm trying to work out when we gained our various vis sources (to then reverse engineer how much vis we have when). I think the answer is as follows:
Creo: willow leaves that fall into a pond in the Don delta marshes a few hours south of the covenant, 2 pawns in Autumn (requires multiple trips to harvest) My understanding is that Patrick identified this in Spring 1228. He then left shortly afterwards - possibly we owe him the Autumn 1228 harvest for discovering it, though?
Rego: the pool of rainwater within the ruined temple to Poseidon, 1 pawn in Spring and Autumn (2 pawns/year) This we found in our initial explorations of the covenant, and I think its first harvest went into the covenant stocks.
Perdo: the pool in the labyrinth on the third level of the temple regio, 3 pawns in Autumn (October, three days past the half-moon) Viola worked out how to harvest this in Summer 1226. She's got no Perdo vis in her stocks, so presumably the first harvest went to the covenant.
Animal: bones from a horse sacrificed on the altar in the portico of the temple, 1 pawn in Spring Theodoric told us about this one, presumably fairly early on.
Imaginem: flowers that grow in a shaded spot within a nearby ravine, 1 pawn in Summer Theodoric told us about this one, presumably fairly early on.
Terram: mud from the place where the underground stream beneath the covenant flows into the local branch of the Don, 1 pawn in Spring Theodoric told us about this one, presumably fairly early on.
Vim: pollen that collects on the altar on the island in the regio, 5 pawns in Summer Fray and Gregorius discovered this in Spring 1228, and kept the first harvest, but it replenishes in Summer 1228, which is the first time the covenant gets it.
As trying to work out exactly what vis we had to pay the architect was getting confusing, I have put together a table of what I think the covenant's vis flow is. This currently doesn't allow for:
- Paying the Architect in 1228
- Paying Stephen 5 pawns of vis in 1228 for his work translating the notes from the previous covenant (although Gregorius would really like to get at least one lab text from that season, even if it has to wait until Stephen is writing up other things anyway).
- Paying Asena 6 pawns of vis in 1229
- Vis for Tasia over 1228 and 1229 (although we can probably leave this as "to be settled if she or her representatives show up asking for it").
[tableborder][tr][th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th]1226[/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th]1227[/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th]1228[/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th]1229[/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th]
[th][/th][/tr]
[tr][td][/td]
[td]Start[/td]
[td]Vis Sources[/td]
[td]Vis Wages[/td]
[td]Other Income and Outgo[/td]
[td]1226 End[/td]
[td]Vis Sources[/td]
[td]Vis Wages[/td]
[td]Other Income and Outgo[/td]
[td]1227 End[/td]
[td]Vis Sources[/td]
[td]Vis Wages[/td]
[td]Other Income and Outgo[/td]
[td]1228 End[/td]
[td]Vis Sources[/td]
[td]Vis Wages[/td]
[td]Other Income and Outgo[/td]
[td]1229 End[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cr[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]7[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mu[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pe[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]8[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]11[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]14[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]17[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Re[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]-2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]-2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]-2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]-2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]An[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-2[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Aq[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Au[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Co[/td]
[td]25[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]-5[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]20[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ig[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Im[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Me[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Te[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]0[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]1[/td]
[td]-1[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Vi[/td]
[td]50[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]-6[/td]
[td]44[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]-5[/td]
[td]39[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]-6[/td]
[td]38[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]-8[/td]
[td]35[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Total Vis[/td]
[td]100[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]94[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]91[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]96[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]99[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Notes[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1 pawn Re to Viola, 1 pawn Re to Gregorius, 1p Te to Tasia[/td]
[td]Restoring Portia's Caladrius
Guessing level 30 Aegis?[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]Level 25 Aegis[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1p Rego, 1p Imaginem to Gregorius, 1 pawn Animal 1 pawn Rego Viola[/td]
[td]Casting tablet for Aegis mag 30[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td]1p Rego, 1 pawn Animal to Gregorius, 1 pawn Rego 1 pawn Terram to Viola[/td]
[td]Viola casting level 40 Aegis[/td]
[td][/td][/tr][/tableborder]
That doesn't exactly match our stocks in the covenant thread - at the end of 1229, my analysis has 2 fewer pawns of Rego vis, 1 fewer pawns of Animal, Imaginem and Terram. I'm not sure if that's because the covenant figures are advanced into 1230 (although in that case, I'd expect the vim levels to have changed again; then again, I did have to guess the strength of our Aegis in the first year). Am I missing / getting wrong anything else?
Based on this, I'd suggest providing the architect with 1 pawn of Terram and 5 pawns of Creo for the casting. Then 2 pawns of Creo and 3 pawns of Perdo for wages.
Patrick would have kept whatever was sitting there in Spring 1228 (that is, vis accumulated in previous autumns).
Right.
Right. I think don't think we considered anything found on covenant grounds to be a "discovery", so this and the Rego went straight into the covenant stocks.
That was the ritual Viola performed to enter the temple regio the first time. Again, on covenant grounds, so straight into the stocks.
Right.
If we apply the same standard as before, that might be considered as being on covenant grounds, hence not a discovery. The real wrinkle in this case, though, is that, unlike the other cases, one of the finders was a non-member, who wouldn't benefit as Viola would from the three sources she found.
Scott
My figures are advanced through Summer, 1230 (I always note the current season in the first post in the "Covenant" thread)--so the covenant has gotten most of its income for 1230, but there's been no distribution yet.
That sounds reasonable.
Scott
I'm pretty sure Gregorius and Fray agreed that Fray would get all 5 pawns of the vim vis they found in Spring 1228 (whilst Gregorius kept all 4 pawns of the Mentem vis from the rabbit). I don't think there's been any explicit discussion of things found on covenant grounds automatically going to the covenant, although I have assumed there has to be some clear case of a specific magus finding it, rather than it coming through the covenant's own resources.
Okay. I think that just leaves the Vim vis as a slight discrepency (does "no distribution yet" include not allowing for the Aegis casting?), but then my first year's outgo for it is guessed anyway.
Next question is what Stephen (5 pawns) and Asena (6 pawns) are getting. I suspect Asena wants Animal really, but we're not going to have any of that at the end of 1229 (and only get 1p per year, so won't have much soon either). What are her second choices? Gregorius would strongly prefer to trade the things we have sources in.
Stephen was a Rego Terram specialist. We're not going to have any Terram at the end of 1228, and Gregorius would prefer not to trade away all of our Rego (actually, he'd prefer not to trade any of it, but can probably be persuaded for a couple of pawns - especially if it's considered more valuable than Form vis). After that...probably Vim? We're already using it faster than we're getting it in, but we do still have a decent stockpile and can distil more if we have to.
Yes, I forgot to deduct Vim vis for the Aegis. I'll go back and change that in a minute.
As for vis for the payments, Viola's only recommendation (she's not in great personal need of any of the vis in question) is that we not give away Vim vis, since we need it for the Aegis. Remember that distilling Vim vis is not nearly as efficient under ArM5 as it was under ArM4. (Technically, IIRC it's half the previous rate, but all the bonuses in the lab rules compensate for that a bit.)
Scott