Cr/Co 25 - The Chirurgeon’s Healing Draught

[Cuchulainshound]

[i](There are no stupid questions - it's just that those are the easiest to answer.

This, however, does not fall under that loose umbrella - if it did, we wouldn't be on page 2. )[/i]

If you're going to go w/ WW, there is no need for any increase in magnitude:

o Step 1) The maga invents a Ritual spell (in this case, a CrCo healing Ritual).
o Step 2) The maga has the Ritual spell Watching Ward at sufficient level to cover #1, above.
o Step 3) The maga casts both, spending the vis for both - done.
The result is the first spell (the CrCo Ritual) , with a trigger of her choosing - possibly "drinking the potion", altho' something even simpler could work, such as "breaking the seal on the potion bottle", or similar w/ any object. No need to mandate "consumption" as the trigger - at this point it could even be "the target's body receiving a Light wound or greater" - a perfectly valid trigger, afaics. The trigger could be simply to say the magic phrase "OMFG Heal My Ass!" - the spell does not have to be located in anything physical, it has been arcanely attached to the "target", the grog/companion/whoever, the eventual recipient of the Healing.

So I don't see any need for additional mag's for "delay" or complexity - the double-Ritual requisite will cost enough vis that it will be used rarely (depending on how much vis you give away*). This could work fine for any spell (= or < the Lvl of the WW) - Ritual spells are just more expensive re vis.

Worst Case Scenario?... I'd be breaking my own rule! It is (apparently, as it currently is interpreted) within the Rules As Written, so there's little to do against it, but... I'd say that the Worst Case would be to grant the ability for a non-mage to cast a spell on themselves when they need it. They could NOT "target" or "aim" that spell - remember, we are assuming the "target" of the Watching Ward spell is the grog/companion, so Range:Self. But Leap of Homecoming, or Cloak of the Phoenix, or something similar where the "target" is ground zero. The worst case, then, would be something in the direction of a huge area-effect CrIg spell with the "target" being somehow immune (a Rego requisite, or just a hole in the area effect while all around them suck it up).

But that can be done with the current RAW, so you're losing nothing by allowing this.

• Regarding the whole "game balance" thing...

Think about what is fun for your Players, and what is fun for you. Both have to be maintained to achieve a successful and long-lasting Saga. You don't want to shut down "creativity", but you (probably?) don't want to allow "creativity" to be an excuse to rewrite the rules, either. As written, this "potion" (or whatever form it takes - doesn't need anything physical, it's just a spell attached to a target) will take maybe 10 vis, 5 for the CrCo and 5 for the ReVi - that's pretty damn expensive as it stands, doubly so for what the Characters get in return! You can change that "expense" by giving away vis hand over fist - or, you can make it completely unattractive by giving away almost none.

These are the "game balance" decisions that you, as SG, have to make, and have to try to foresee for the longer story. Don't go overboard all at once, but err on the side of generosity. "A little extra" will rarely break the game, but "never nearly enough" might easily wear on the Players. As an experiment, you can give away "a lot" and watch and see where the Characters go with it - it never has to happen again if it's starting toward imbalance. Meanwhile, your Players will have had their "intermittent positive reward" and be happier with the game - and you can repeat rarely, as the need occurs, and have a better response than if vis fell from the sky down like rain.

[Iudicium]

I think the WW idea would work fine within the RAW, so maybe you won't really need what I'm about to say.
But anyway, here it is: there is another idea that was overlooked. There is a way to do exactly what your player wanted to do:

@Alech

My player reasoned thus: It's not an enchanted item replicating a ritual. It's a ritual that creates a magical essence (potion) that can heal.

So, your player wants to create water that have the propertie to heal a person drinking it. I think you still need to examine the game balance implication mentionned above, but here is how this could be done, and why this is RAW, IMHO.

Muto magic can be used to give something a propertie it does not naturally have (ArM, p78)
But, the Limit of Essential nature (ArM5, p79) says that "any magic which violates a thing's essential nature must be maintained (...)" and we all agree water does not heal a wound...
Muto Aquam Guideline level 4 : Change a liquid into a very unnatural liquid (ArM5, p123) could be used to give some water the propertie to heal. A Ritual would give a duration of a year (this is the maximum duration by the RAW). This make a (R: tch, D:Year, T: ind.) Level 25. That spell would need two necessary requisits (thus not adding magnetudes, see ArM5, p114) of Creo and Corpus. The ritual nature of the spell could be used to explain why the healing is permanent. You could also stretch the duration rule to be somewhat similar to a Watching Ward spell (indefinite, but one time only healing).

It remains unanwered in the RAW (AFAIK) if that ability-imparting healing could be made permanent through the use of a ritual.
Notice it could be interpreted that the RAW allow for the person drinking such a potion to be able to heal multiple time within a year. I think this would be obviously avoided for power balance reasons.

But as a ritual spell, one time only healing device, The Chirurgeon’s Healing Draught, MuAq(CrCo)25, though a bit bizarre and maybe far fetched, seems pretty on accord with the RAW to me.

IMHO, It's your call as a Troupe to decide if it should be dealt with the Charged Item rules instead, ot WW, or whatever house rule you like.
My 2 cents

[Chalkeús]

Oh my...
And it is with this thread that i learn that there is no potion anymore. I was toying with the idea of making the change from 4th edition to 5th. But if they can't make their potions anymore. They should make changelog for RPG.

[Tellus]

@Chalkeús

Oh my...
And it is with this thread that i learn that there is no potion anymore. I was toying with the idea of making the change from 4th edition to 5th. But if they can't make their potions anymore. They should make changelog for RPG.

Potions form 4th got subsumed into charged items in the 5th.
Please notice that Healing Potions weren't really RAW during the 4th edition either, as such healing could (can) only be temporary.

Aa for a changelog, have you looked at Appendix I, p. 223ff of the ArM5 corebook?

[Chalkeús]

I did see it. But it is far from exhaustive (of course. And it was more of a joke as a true changelog would be almost as big as the Core book.)

As for healing potions not RaW in 4th, i don't understand. You can expand raw vis to use the longer of two durations (instant for example), there is even a mention of healing effect for potions.

@ArM 4 Core

Though it is not required, you may wish to expend raw vis when creating potions. If you want the potion to have the longer of two durations listed for a spell (which is especially important for healing spells),...

(But i fear I'm derailing the topic.)

[Tellus]

@Chalkeús

I did see it. But it is far from exhaustive (of course. And it was more of a joke as a true changelog would be almost as big as the Core book.)

I'd guessed as much

As for healing potions not RaW in 4th, i don't understand. You can expand raw vis to use the longer of two durations (instant for example), there is even a mention of healing effect for potions.

@ArM 4 Core

Though it is not required, you may wish to expend raw vis when creating potions. If you want the potion to have the longer of two durations listed for a spell (which is especially important for healing spells),...

Ah, sorry, my bad.

[callen]

@Cuchulainshound

No, C, I understand all that - it's obvious.

But, are you forgetting that as originally proposed this spell is a Ritual?

OK, the problem is in reading what we (the original poster and I) wrote then. I said it isn't a problem for the given spell in this way. Why not? Because it's a ritual. I said the method is the problem. Where in the original post do you see a comment that says such an added magnitude also changes a spell into a ritual? Adjusting the ruling to require a ritual for that would solve the problem I pointed out, but that doesn't mean the problem I pointed out didn't exist.

Chris

[callen]

I suppose a single spell to do this could follow RAW completely: Cr(Re)Co(Vi), ritual. Essentially, attach a Watching Ward to the CrCo spell as a single spell. That would add two requisites and one or two magnitudes, depending on how you rule it. I can't see how this would violate anything in RAW.

Chris

[Cuchulainshound]

@Chalkeús

And it is with this thread that i learn that there is no potion anymore. I was toying with the idea of making the change from 4th edition to 5th. But if they can't make their potions anymore. They should make changelog for RPG.

As pointed out, magi can still make "potions" - the change was that in 5th they can now make anything that is one-use, whether drinkable or no - magic arrow, salve, breakable vial, scroll, enchanted apple - whatever.

What was lost, and that I miss, is the non-magi potion maker , the specialist-/companion-level alchemist who considers himself powerful when he can get a Lvl 6 effect in a bottle - 2nd magnitude! (Technically...)

[Alech]

@callen

I suppose a single spell to do this could follow RAW completely: Cr(Re)Co(Vi), ritual. Essentially, attach a Watching Ward to the CrCo spell as a single spell. That would add two requisites and one or two magnitudes, depending on how you rule it. I can't see how this would violate anything in RAW.

Chris

Seems to fit perfectly to what the player wants to do.

[Galdric]

What was lost, and that I miss, is the non-magi potion maker , the specialist-/companion-level alchemist who considers himself powerful when he can get a Lvl 6 effect in a bottle - 2nd magnitude! (Technically...)

I like folk witches just because of that, even though they really need a good stock of vis to create their potions. Also, natural philosophers from Art&Academe can do some alchemy-related things.

But yes, both are outside the core rules...

[MarioJPC]

I suggest that a Ritual Effect should be add +1 or surely more magnitudes to the Effect.
But i i used this idea about a fountain and liquor that transforms those who drink from it on beasts, the effect was Moon and had the basis.

Destilar el Encantamiento de la Licantropía/Refinning the Lycantropic Enchantment
MuAq(Co)(An) 40
Base: Toque, Duración: Lunar, Objetivo: Individuo
Utilizando este conjuro puede hacer que un cuerpo estanco de un líquido (de un tamaño máximo como el de un pozo o una charca, o una cuba de vino o similar) adquiera la capacidad de transformar a quien lo beba en lobo, siempre y cuando logre penetrar la Resistencia Mágica del que beba en el caso que quien lo beba posea una. La transformación sucede rápidamente, y dura durante todo el ciclo lunar a menos de que se resista, tanto como la capacidad del líquido de ejecutar la transformación. Puede intentar se resistir el encantamiento, una stress die + Stamina + Concentration toe easy factor of 10 cada those change of Moon phase after to drink la pócima, pero cada pinta bebida después mientras dura el encantamiento aumenta en dos la dificultad, y aumenta en uno la tirada de pifia. Pifiar en la tirada incrementa el tiempo un número de semanas igual a los dados pifiados, tras lo cual se puede hacer un nuevo intento de resistir lo, a una dificultad igual a 9 – número de semanas por pifiar, una nueva pifia incrementa el tiempo, pero se vuelve a intentar tras este tiempo con una nueva prueba de 6 – nuevo número de semanas maldito. Éste efecto Corrompe el objeto en el que se encuentre o de donde provenga el agua (tonel, fuente, etc.) y a quien sufre el Encantamiento por ser un efecto Poderoso.
(Base 4, +1 Touc, +3 Moon, +1 Size, +1 Requisites to transform humans on animals, +2 Intrincacy)

Partially translated.

[Albert]

Here's another possibility: Use the original research rules.

The magus isn't actually seeking a breakthrough, but he (or she) is trying to do something that pushes the limits of Hermetic magic. So experiment until you manage to stabilize a Discovery. You can now use that specific spell, and does it really matter that you've also got ~5 points towards a Hermetic breakthrough?

-Albert

[The_Fixer]

@callen

I suppose a single spell to do this could follow RAW completely: Cr(Re)Co(Vi), ritual. Essentially, attach a Watching Ward to the CrCo spell as a single spell. That would add two requisites and one or two magnitudes, depending on how you rule it. I can't see how this would violate anything in RAW.
Chris

For the record, I'd like to point that this is a potentially contentious point that was brought up before, and so this may not be appropriate for every saga.

Arm5 spells are usually rather straightforward, doing one thing at a time, and, IIRC, the thread pointed that, for exemple, this kind of "spell combo" (Heal + WW) opened the door to, for exemple, having one spell that made you invisible (PeIm), teleported you above your ennemy (ReCo), while also providing you flight, for just what? +3 mag?

Pro: it means more powerful magi can, in practice, "cast" more spells at once
Con: It is a little cheap, and saves a lot of time, both in lab (If you've got the total, it's faster to create 1 lvl 35 spell than 3 lvl 20 ones) and in battle

=> This may be ok for you, or not, and you should be aware is not necessarily following at least the spirit of the RAW.

For the record, I don't recall the conclusions, if any, of that thread, just the problem, so the issue may have been cleared.

[LuciusT]

Another suggestion of how this could work under the rules is to think about it a little differently. After all, what are you doing: you're creating an unnatural liquid with healing properties.

Creo Aquam, base 2 to create a contained liquid. +2 for a very unnatural liquid. +1 touch range. Corpus requisite (and here we enter into the murky realms of GM fiat) which I will rule at a +5 because of the power of the healing effect (essentially encompassing the entire 5th magnitude Chirurgeon's Healing Touch). Creo Aquam 30, ritual.

The Chirurheon's Healing Draught, Creo Aquam 30
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
Req: Corpus
Creates a magical liquid which heals a Light Wound when consumed. The drinker suffers 1 Warping Point upon drinking the draught due the strength of the magical effect.

[gerg]

@Albert

Here's another possibility: Use the original research rules. The magus isn't actually seeking a breakthrough, but he (or she) is trying to do something that pushes the limits of Hermetic magic. So experiment until you manage to stabilize a Discovery. You can now use that specific spell, and does it really matter that you've also got ~5 points towards a Hermetic breakthrough?

+1 for nice thinking outside the box

[Albert]

@gerg

@Albert

Here's another possibility: Use the original research rules. The magus isn't actually seeking a breakthrough, but he (or she) is trying to do something that pushes the limits of Hermetic magic. So experiment until you manage to stabilize a Discovery. You can now use that specific spell, and does it really matter that you've also got ~5 points towards a Hermetic breakthrough?

+1 for nice thinking outside the box

The fun part is, this provides plenty of justification for all sorts of weird spells/effects that break Hermetic rules - clearly some magus was stubborn enough to go to the trouble of inventing it the hard way a few decades/centuries ago. Great stuff to hide in the ruins of a Winter Covenant, forex.

You also have to wonder what's hidden in the library of Durenmar. But since those guys are currently on a conservative kick, they probably won't want magi to mess with incomplete research projects unless the magi are planning on trying to complete the project. On the other hand, stabilizing a breakthrough is worth 3 House Acclaim xp per magnitude (I assume the 2 xp for inventing an original spell with experimentation are subsumed in this, otherwise you get 5/mag), so this is a not-particularly onerous way to climb the Bonisagus rank-ladder.

-Albert

[ExarKun]

(to be faire, the rank ladder of house Bonisagus is completly broken)

[Jabir]

I'd say it's at best questionable that one can get a specifically desired and useful result from experimentation prior to actually achieving the Breakthrough. It's trivial to break limits (Hermetic and otherwise) if all you need is a single stabilized Discovery.

Hedge Magic does posit that a new virtue, Ritual Items, can be developed based on Witch insights, for 45 breakthrough points, allowing the creation of healing potions and the like.

[ndkid]

@Jabir

I'd say it's at best questionable that one can get a specifically desired and useful result from experimentation prior to actually achieving the Breakthrough. It's trivial to break limits (Hermetic and otherwise) if all you need is a single stabilized Discovery.

Hedge Magic does posit that a new virtue, Ritual Items, can be developed based on Witch insights, for 45 breakthrough points, allowing the creation of healing potions and the like.

This is one of those saga-dependent things. I believe the guidance the TL book gives is pretty much "player and SG work it out"; it certainly does say the experimenting magus is designing effects related to the breakthrough they're working toward, so there's at least an implication that they have non-trivial control (beyond just picking Technique and Form and magnitude) over what the spell that results does.