I'm not going to say that I'm a huge fan of the experimentation tables, but getting a stable discovery can easily turn into a matter of years. Plus it's not terribly hard to end up with a Side Effect, Modified Effect, or Special Effect messing with the Discovery. In addition, you eat a random number of yummy, delicious Warping points every season you attempt to stabilize.
If the player is willing to go to the trouble, I say go for it. If they want someone else to have done all the work, let them pay through the nose in Covenant Creation points or something.
On average, it should take about 5-6 tries, a year and a half (for spell/item taking only 1 season) - 1/10 chance each effort for inventing. So could be 1 season, could indeed be years on to a decade or more (for the truly unlucky); that sort of % is impossible to predict with any true reliability.
Unfortunately, true, by the RAW. Any time an SG includes expanded material from supplements (and especially if that material is then used other than as intentioned, as in the present suggestion), they should consider complications such as this one, and possibly houserule for/against additions or limitations to that material.
In the process as presented, the difference in difficulty for "minor/major breakthrough" distinctions comes after this "discovery" stage, unfortunately, and so game balance on this point goes out the window if any "discovery" is as immediately useful as the next, regardless of the Limit it breaks. I doubt if the author foresaw this particularly ploy, and a "ploy" it seems to be. Altho' it's not exactly trivial to achieve (all the joy and risk of Experimentation, with only 1/10 chance of Discovery for each effort) and only applies to "that one spell", that one spell could be designed to break almost any Hermetic Limit, RAW, so the effort involved could be negligible compared to the advantage gained - and thus completely unbalancing game-wise.
One obvious solution is to simply rule that a "Discovery" is not stable (or perhaps even unusable) until "stabilized" (which is, RAW, a later step in the Breakthrough process), that even if the spell/item is "discovered" and successfully "invented", that there are innate problems associated with using it (if it's allowed at all at that early stage).
It's important to note that, in play, a character can only discover things that your troupe says are discoverable. The various supplements do give examples of things that might be discoverable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of these are discoverable in your saga. And it certainly doesn't mean that every mad modification to Hermetic theory that a player dreams up will be possible.
Also, in-character, the experimenter in the lab doesn't actually have much control over what he discovers. The players have control over that, and how much (more or less) control the storyguide has (as opposed to the other players) is dependent on your troupe.
That's my interpretation and I would guess it was the intent of the authors. The interpretation is complicated by the fact that we have two different systems for original research, in True Lineages and in Ancient Magic.
True Lineages page 30 gives an example of the research process. A Magus who wants to break the Limit of Vis repeatedly experiments while developing MuVi spells. There's no suggestion that he creates any sort of Limit-breaking effect during the process. He just gets working spells and also breakthrough points.
Ancient Magic introduces the intermediate spells that break the existing Hermetic rules. However, that book also explicitly states: The researcher does not get to choose the effect for which he receives insight (pg. 9).
This kicks it back to the storyguide and the troupe, to determine where the bits of uncovered ancient wisdom lead. It seems a little cheap to me to allow too many shortcuts here.
The system in Ancient Magic is not for Original Research, it is for Integrating non-Hermetic magic with Hermetic. Subtle difference.
In True Lineages the researcher can make any arbitrary breakthrough (that the troupe says is possible) and he makes "discoveries" while inventing related effects that incrementally add up to the breakthrough, but which don't actually break any limits as individual effects.
In Ancient Magic the researcher a) had to find/steal an artifact, effect, etc from some other tradition, b) studies it to gain an insight, c) uses the insight to produce a specific effect (which would usually duplicate in some way the model non-Hermetic effect), which also generates points that add up to a breakthrough. The effect he learns from the the insight might break a Hermetic limit in some way (because it is based on a model of non-Hermetic magic that does break a Hermetic limit).
So, sure, if the character is happy with the effect that he gets from the insight, he doesn't have to go on to complete the breakthrough. But this short-cut strategy is open to him only if he is integrating non-Hermetic magic, which means that there has to actually be a non-Hermetic tradition available to him (extinct or not) that practises what he is after. And remember an insight effect can only be exactly reproduced. He can't vary the range, etc, he can't use it in spontaneous magic, he can't incorporate it into an item (if it's a spell; or vice versa if it's an item). The researcher character also has no control over what the insight effect is. It might not be what he wants, and it is possible that he may not even be able to reproduce the insight effect all (if it is too high level, say; which will stall his integration project).
Two very, very important (and relevant) points, all too often forgotten IMO. How often do you see people discussing every mystery and ancient magic as if everything, surely, is available and exist?
Not that this isn't necessarily negative: A "casual" experimentation might very well produce a result that's very favorable to the character, and that breaks some hermetic limit, just as, IRL, scientists searching for something may get unexpected results and discover something new.
But you don't get to say "my discovery will yield this result", especially as what you want (Say, a spell to restore fatigue) may simply not be possible in your saga.
Find a folk witch with 'healing'; study healing potions made by such a person; learn 'folk witch magic theory' and try applying it to Hermetic potions/charged items; etc.
Several alternatives are possible: overall breakthrough might be the 'rituals in charged items', or the researcher could aim for a much more limited breakthrough such as just the healing potions that were originally asked for. There is an argument that just learning folk witch magic theory (which is explicitly learnable by anyone) would allow pretty much any supernatural ability you happen to have to be placed in a potion, but you'd still need the breakthrough to be able to put hermetic spells in them.
Personally, if I were the SG I'd make them go for the full breakthrough and meanwhile tell them to find and employ a folk witch to make healing potions.
Of course, if such healing by folk witches or equivalent isn't available/possible, then the SG should simply tell the player that it isn't possible.
Yes, that's exactly the idea, and that could be a significant chunk of a saga.
I don't think so, if you are a magus, you would need your Gift Opened to Folk Witch magic too (which is difficult, but not impossible, if it has already been opened to the Hermetic Arts) . If you were unGifted, then you would need to go through the appropriate initiations for each Supernatural Ability (Gifted characters could go via this route too).
Yes, or rather my preference would be for the whole troupe to make such decisions (even if the storyguide has more votes).
Also remember that even if the players know and agree that something isn't possible the character doesn't really have access to this information. So, in theory you can have a character trying to research something that isn't possible. Of course, whether that happens in play will depend on whether the players think that a character engaged in hopeless research is a fun character or not. It, however, should be relatively common amongst non-player character researchers.
Take in mind that the supernatural abilities of the witches require an activation process. That is quite different from, say, having Animal Ken, since your animal ken abilitiy is simply better than that of a Witch. As such, you would need to get a WORSE animal ken to fully comprehend what the witcxhes are doing and be able to place it in a potion.
Yep. That's what I meant by needing to get your Gift Opened. To make folk witch potions (without embarking on some kind of integration process) you need to become a folk witch. Just knowing Folk Witch Magic Theory is not enough.
Knowing Folk Witch Magic Theory does help with integration, and it helps do stuff like identify, dispell, and cast fast-cast defences against Folk Witch effects.
You could (and probably will, if it came up) both rule this way in your sagas, however there is nothing at all to declare that this is necessary in Hedge Magic. I'd put it to a vote in my saga.
Look at unGifted Folk Witches: they can start play with supernatural abilities from buying virtues during character generation; they can also initiate more, using the standard rules. They can learn Folk Witch Magic Theory (abbrev. to FWMT). By some unstated mechanism, unless it is simply from learning FWMT, they can make 'potions' (other descriptions/items that have the same result are possible) and a few other things. They do not have a gift to be opened, there are no special procedures mentioned, no requirement or limitation on which supernatural abilities this works with (in fact, different covens tend to have different supernatural abilities available).
The only thing that having a gifted character's gift opened by a folk witch does is to allow 7 supernatural abilities to be 'favoured' and therefore learnable easily. A hermetic mage would probably be better off gaining one or two supernatural abilities through initiations, like the ungifted folk witches. Why would it be any different for them just because they already have hermetic magic?
I can see why you'd want to rule that it is not so easy, for balance reasons, but there is nothing to justify it in the rules that I can see.
This is true, being initiated into a specific witch ability is the alternative to having the entire tradition opened. Either way, the magus is going through a significant magical experience, not just learning the Witch Theory skill.
I have strong misgivings myself as to how initiation has been a standard mechanic in recent books to short-circuit normal restrictions on learning supernatural abilities. I think it's fairly well done in TMRE as a way to learn mystery virtues within the Hermetic tradition. I don't like it being used to add corebook virtues like Focus and I think I would at a minimum raise the difficulty level significantly to learn virtues from another tradition. I'd also think very carefully how ubiquitous I wanted magic to be in my sage before deciding whether it could be used to grant powers to the ungifted as per folk witches in HMRE.
the initiation supernatural abilities of the ungifted witches also requires them to perform an incantation or something like that to activate the powers. They are not like the "full time ON" powers you would get from a plain virtue. THis might indicate that they are somewhat linked to the opening of the witch gift.
or not, depending on your preferences IMS it would be linked. If not anyone with a supernatural ability could brew potions. After all (IIRC) you do not need folk witch MT to brew potions, it is only a nice bonus to have. WEould make for a much more potion-rich environment for sure, so it might be worth it if you want a more high fantasy saga, where you can buy flight and animal ken potions at the pawnbroker.
However, Hedge Magic RAW does state (Serfs Parma, but looking at the contents online, it must be around page 36) that you can only use the Folk Witch casting methods (potions, fetish, incantation) if you are a Folk Witch (and you have to use the Folk Witch methods, which is not always an advantage). Just having the Supernatural Abilities is explicitly stated as not enough. The thing that indicates you are a Folk Witch is having had your Gift Opened in the Folk Witch manner --- or undergoing the individual Folk Witch inititations.
Having access to Folk Witch Magic Theory just means that you can intellectually understand what is done by Folk Witches. That is not sufficient to do the magical bits yourself. You need your Gift opened "properly" --- or equivalent for unGifted characters.
The same applies in reverse. A Folk Witch who learns Hermetic Magic Theory cannot suddenly start using Hermetic Arts or generating a Hermetic Lab Total.
This is interesting. How dows FWMT help with those spells? Is it simply because without it you need very general Vim spells, which are hard to pull off at sufficiently high levels and with it you can use more specific and efficient spells? Like Winds of Mundane Silence vs. The Heathen Witch Reborn?
Or is it some other mechanic I just haven't found?
InVi requires you "to be familiar" with a type of non-Hermetic magic in order to categorically and precisely detect its effects --- knowing FWMT should certainly count as being "familiar". Its not the only conceivable thing that a player could point to and claim that therefore his character is "familiar with folk witch magic", but it is a good one.
Similarly, as you say, it is easier to dispell specific types of non-Hermetic magic (which you are familiar with) than to use very general effects like Winds of Mundane Silence.
And when casting a fast cast defence you might want to discern the Form/equivalent of the incoming effect. RAW is a bit vague on this, but FWMT surely will help if the effect you are looking at is a FW one.
Yup, just as I thought.
I currently play a Pralician Vim specialist focused on a certain type of hedgie. With Comprehend Magic this is fairly easy to become 'familiar' with. Works great, but alas he is quite specialized and thus fell in the trap og being next to useless in many situations, like those involving physical things...
IMS it would be linked. If not anyone with a supernatural ability could brew potions. After all (IIRC) you do not need folk witch MT to brew potions, it is only a nice bonus to have. WEould make for a much more potion-rich environment for sure, so it might be worth it if you want a more high fantasy saga, where you can buy flight and animal ken potions at the pawnbroker.