Daimons and Ars Goetia: Summoning

[Tellus]

@OneShot

the Art of drawing a spirit into the infernalist’s presence , transporting it to him so that he may bargain with it or further target it with his Powers.

... which for a proper Daimon would be an Avatar, a fragment of the whole spirit.
Daimons are not humans, or human adjacent beings. Do not think of them as such.

Hence what can't be transported - like a Daimon proper - cannot be summoned by the Goetist. Invoking the Daimon to send an Aspect is something quite different from transporting a Daimon.

I don't see how that follows. At least, it does not from my understanding of Daimons.

[OneShot]

@ErikT

That last isn't really correct. An Aspect is a spirit. Summoning a spirit is certainly possible.

Yep. But you need to have the AC to that specific Aspect (see above). And it will not help much, because then the core spirit can discard the Aspect.

@ErikT

Summoning a Daimon, and summoning an Aspect of that Daimon is pretty much synonymous in practice, since the latter is always the result of doing the former.

Following RoP:M p102, we know that summoning a Daimon to Earth with an AC is not even possible. Invoking Pacts with Daimons (which cause the Daimons to dispatch Aspects) and summoning spirits (which exist at the time of summoning) are different things. RoP:TI p.114ff only treats summoning spirits.

"Pretty much synonymous in practice" is just a way to say "different in effect".

[ErikT]

Let me rephrase it then.
Summoning a daimon means summoning an aspect of that daimon.
If you have an Arcane Connection to a daimon (True Name, Synthemata, or something else) it can be used for summoning that daimon - i.e. summoning an aspect of the daimon.

Granted, once you have summoned an aspect of a daimon, the daimon can always discard that aspect at any time, so you can't force it to do anything that way, but that is a separate problem.

[OneShot]

@Tellus

... which for a proper Daimon would be an Avatar, a fragment of the whole spirit.

An Aspect of a Daimon is not a fragment of it. Read RoP:M p.102 box Daimons:

An Aspect may be created or destroyed with a moment’s thought, and costs no Might points to create. Each Aspect is like an independent spirit, with some or all of the characteristics and powers of the original spirit, but its own Might score (usually a mere fraction of the parent Daimon), and its own pool of Might points. An Aspect cannot recover spent Might points, rather it is dispelled when exhausted and replaced (if necessary) with another Aspect. Defeating or destroying the Aspect has no impact on the originating Daimon, except perhaps on its disposition towards the perpetrators of these acts.
No permanent changes can be made to any Aspect, as they never last. Only the Aspect is ever trapped or bound by magic, and the Daimon can escape by discarding the Aspect.

[Tellus]

1. That would be RoP: M, p. 102 - not RoP: TI, p. 102, but that's just a typo.
2. Would you care to elaborate? Because I really don't see what you mean. Is it the "Each Aspect is like an independent spirit" sentence?

[OneShot]

@Tellus

That would be RoP: M, p. 102 - not RoP: TI, p. 102, but that's just a typo.

Right! I had to catch a metro and could not double check.

@Tellus

Would you care to elaborate? Because I really don't see what you mean. Is it the "Each Aspect is like an independent spirit" sentence?

No. It is, that Aspects as decribed are not fragments. This is, because they are not a part of the Daimon: e. g. affecting them does not weaken the Daimon.