- Yes, I want to start there. But if you guys have stuff you want to do either during or after that...
- I assume you mean February?
While waiting on decisions for a few spells, can I move on to post-gauntlet with Adeline?
- Adventure for the covenant or the tribunal, such as dealing with our lost founder. Find a familiar. Compete in the tribunal tourney. Etc.
- Probably ballpark the beginning of February, but I'm flexible.
It looks like the standard starting lab is Size 0. If we want a lab bigger than Size 0, should we spend two seasons setting up a different lab or something similar?
callen
Go ahead with post gauntlet.
Lab size is 0 to start. Refinement is what you are aiming for.
You can't refine Size, you need a physically bigger space. Which is more do'able in this set up than most.
On the size question can I suggest: size could be changed a few ways:
- making the space more efficient with current kit, which is a function of refinement; which allows another virtue to be invested later. Takes a season and all the rolls as normal. Probably a waste given that refinement is capped and has risks.
- physically expanding the space, like adding an extension on a stand alone building. Time is debatable but it makes sense to me this also takes a season. Should also have a once off cost (because I canât recall if size adds Upkeep?). Also argue that you could add a lot more space in one season if you wanted it. Extra space has a slight disadvantage if it isnât utilised.
I imagine an ambitious magus building a new structure over the top of their current lab then removing most of the walls on the old structure so it becomes a gallery or extra chamber in the new mega-lab. 
That approach is why I was wondering about just spending two seasons to build a whole new lab.
That's an interesting idea, and considering I was thinking of adding Greater Feature/Focus: Antechamber to my lab, it could be fitting, even if just as an explanation for how it came to be that way.
Keep in mind that I am handwaving moving your lab to the Covenant prior to the start of the game, so size really shouldn't be an issue. Is there a mechanical benefit to increasing the size?
There can be benefits and problems. A bigger lab can hold more, so more Virtues. But that makes the Occupied Size bigger, so less Safety. Also, if the Occupied Size is too much smaller than the actual Size, then you have to take the Empty Flaw one or more times. So I generally consider Size to be a good thing for a little bit, but not a lot. I also tend to prefer two labs, one built to my specialty, and one built for everything else. I can usually do better squeezing two smaller labs in the same space and run the labs more cheaply, though it does require many more seasons of labor.
Because I'm handwaving moving your lab, I'm going to quash you creating a second lab prior to the start of the game.
If you want to spend the time to increase the size in your lab, though, I'm ok with that.
I wasn't going to make a second lab yet. That was more in-game to build toward a familiar and a talisman and similar.
What should I do for a bigger lab? Mechanically in Covenants, you just start with a bigger one. I am considering paying someone to build (cast one ritual) a tower for me to have a space I like. That would probably cost 7 or so pawns from a Mercurian, with the Mercurian pocketing 3 of those 7 pawns for one day's work. That would require several seasons of Vis wages, which is probably a fair expenditure to get the space anyway.
You know, you would think that the Virtues/Flaws would impact size...but they don't. Even the Features have no bearing on size. Really odd.
Anyhow, I need reference material to review regarding the Mercurian thing you put forth below. Book and page please?
Core book, page 153: Conjuring the Mystic Tower (CrTe 35). It's not that a Mercurian would have to do it. But Mercurians can do it for half the cost and so can undercut everyone and still make a huge profit. If they charge the 7 pawns, non-Mercurians cannot compete and the Mercurians can pocket half (rounded down) of the vis. As long as the Mercurians agree not to compete against each other and drag the price toward 5 pawns, they can keep their stranglehold on the market and their nice profits.
I need reference material on the cost you are mentioning. I'm not aware of the cost structure for getting other magi to cast spells for you.
There is no listed cost structure. I was just looking at economics with my suggestion. A few magi could cast the spell for 4 pawns. Many magi could cast it for 7 pawns. Those few magi can undercut the many by charging 7 pawns or fewer; as soon as they go to 8 pawns, they compete against many other magi. So 7 pawns or fewer gets them a maximum number of jobs. (Doesn't have to be just this spell. They could do the same with many other rituals.) Now, do they compete against each other? Generally a small number of competitors in such situations create a cartel. The Mercurian cartel then fixes the price at 7 pawns, keeping everyone else out of their market while reaping maximum gains (3 pawns of vis for 2 hours of work, when the work is available).
Triple the Vis cost is pretty typical for spells and enchantments.
There are basically 0 (1200 members so .002% of the total population) magi in the world and Mercurians are a tiny fraction of them (apparently most common in house Mercer who already makes all the money in the order anyway). There is no reasonable way that Mercurians would actually set the pricing.
ANother note, assuming there is an even distribution of Major Hermetic Virtues there are only about 40 magi with each virtue (which is well in-excess of all of house Mercer so I guess nothing can be "Most Common" in Mercer).
You're referencing the price to hire a magus for a season of labor for the price to hire them for a day?
As for the numbers, it only takes one, really. And this is a Virtue that shows up in lineages and is available through two cults. Of course, as I'm already looking at a few Creo rituals, maybe I should consider that initiation.
According to the core book on page 81, a ritual spell requires 1 pawn of raw vis per magnitude of the spell to be performed. And the spell, per the core book on page 153, is a 7th magnitude spell (level 35), which would require 7 pawns just for casting it (plus 15 minutes per magnitude, which comes to 1 hour, 45 minutes). That doesn't include what the visiting magus/maga is going to ask for as payment for casting the spell.
The spell is CrTe, which means that you have to come up with Creo or Terram vis to cast the spell, and the core book states you only need one or the other (although both isn't a bad idea). I don't think it's out of the question to have to pay 1 pawn of each kind of vis - 1 Creo and 1 Terram, in this case - to the magus/maga who is performing the ritual for you as payment for their time, energy, casting the spell, etc. Which brings the payment to 9 total pawns of vis, of which at least 1 has to be Creo and 1 has to be Terram. Unless someone thinks otherwise on this?
I would charge at least double. Especially for something that requires me to come to you.
There is risk in the travel, there is risk in the casting, if it takes more than 11 days to get to your covenant then ya. I did blow potentially a whole season of lab work. The higher the level spell the few people who can cast it. This isn't a garage sale if someone is coming to you they aren't trying to do you a favor they are trying to make up the cost it took them to get the lab script or spend the time inventing the spell, or at least they are trying to push projects of they own. I think getting paid enough that I could cast a spell once for myself for every time I cast it for someone else seems fair.
I'm building a specialist in creo rituals, I would think I would charge at least an extra 50% for my rituals. For you my friends, I'll take it all in form vis.
I think I'll do it myself. I was already planning on inventing some CrTe rituals and a CrHe ritual. Meanwhile I've already got Adeline in the Cult of Mercury. I think I could do even more interesting things if she focuses on the Cult of Mercury more (which does teach Mercurian Magic) along with her weapons and armor stuff and tries to work with Houses Flambeau and Tremere to do better for their grogs and the like. Then I also don't have to deal with hiring anyone, and I can help out our own covenant more. Mostly I just have to change a sentence about being Christian.
While it is mentioned in our books and the Virtue is written out in our books, there is no given initiation script for Mercurian Magic through the Cult of Mercury in the books we're using. While we could make up an initiation, we could also grab it from Faith & Flame as the Ordeal there also provides a Flaw that is available in our books. This is the script in Faith & Flame: