Yes, pretty much, but not that they don't have physical characteristics and not that they don't have Wound Levels. For example, when binding as a Familiar, you use Size. Does that mean you can't bind a spirit because the needed lab total is derived from Size? No, multiple books allow binding spirits as Familiars; for that the lack of Size is treated as 0. Similarly, not having meaningful Size doesn't imply Wound Levels cannot be assigned.
Meanwhile, how about something like Strength, even for a spirit that cannot take on a physical form? Well, it says, "Note that the physical Characteristics of spirits are only used when interacting with other incorporeal creatures;" So just like HoH:S, RoP:M says spirits can physically interact with each other.
When it comes down to it, there are a whole bunch of books that give Wound Levels to spirits, including books we're using and including RoP:M. There are also multiple books that state spirits can physically interact with each other, including books we're using and including RoP:M.
I tend to agree with Callen’s point. As they have stats it seems reasonable that a weapon could be made to hurt those stats. Also seems fair that a mental weapon could be made without the physical one. Like a psychic knife - CrMe to conjure a blade which hurts ghosts.
Story guides call.
The big comment for me from RoP:M is the bit I underlined above. Spirits can be slain in immaterial form without using PeVi Might strippers. You can use PeVi Might strippers, but they are not necessary. I'm specifically trying to work on how my character would approach combating various foes with a Minor Magical Focus in arms and armor and using that as a theme, and this would prevent losing the vis, which is important for someone from a vis-starved tribunal. Afterward I'll have to consider how she would fight an air/fire/water elemental or similar. But those, being more specialized, are for later.
I find your approach plausible, callen. Penetrationwise, a CrMe weapon might do slightly better that a MuTeMe weapon since there is no need to add magnitudes for metal. If you want to change a weapon, a wooden weapon might also be easier to change.
I'm ending this discussion right now. I've stated multiple times that this book is not an allowed source, and I'm not going to entertain discussions on how to deal with ghosts or spirits or anything else with rules that lie in this book. Rulings will come from the allowed sources, period. Please do not bring this non-allowed material up again.
OK, exact same argument except using Ghostly Warder (ArM5 193).
To be clear I think using PeMe to deal damage makes more sense.
EDIT: And like I said before It depends on how the ghost is built mechanically. If incorporeality is modeled as an immunity to physical objects virtue, then you need to do a different thing to your sword than if it just bodyless. Transforming the sword into a non-physical weapon rather than giving it the property to hurt non-physical things. They should be essentially the same spell and hopefully the rules on ghosts are consistent within a single saga.
I'm not going to go back and read through the entire discussion because, as I stated earlier this morning, the relevant discussion was based on a source that is not allowed. I can, however, respond to Swindle's comment about Ghostly Warder. Per the ArM5 core rule book, on page 193, it is stated:
It's right there in black and white. Ghosts, spirits, haunts, or whatever else you want to call them, while frightening and may have an impact on your psyche, cannot engage in physical combat with someone on the material plane. Nor can you harm them in combat as they do not reside on the material plane. This extends to:
This should pretty much sum up what ghosts can/cannot do. There is currently no need to worry about crafting spells to wipe out entire armies of ghosts as they cannot harm you. They might move your stuff around and cause you problems, but they cannot fight.
I know you don't want to read the whole thing, but let me restate something. The whole discussion was actually based entirely off of allowed sources.
I'd specifically used the books you said we're using. Most of the books we're using give ghosts Wound Levels or state spirits can physically interact with other spiritual things or make other comments that necessitate that one line from the core book being incorrect. That was what I based my whole initial question on, not at all on what is written in RoP:M. I did state all these other books are consistent with RoP:M, but I didn't base anything off of it.
HoH:TL gives Wound Levels for ghosts (p.126-127) and has spells for ghosts hurting people in combat (spells I'm just trying to do the other way around) that absolutely require that that combat part you quoted from the ghostly warder in the core book (from before they developed rules on spirits) be incorrect. HoH:S (p.99) specifies physical interactions by stating, "The physical characteristics of the spirit are only used when dealing with other incorporeal creatures," and that point is why I want to make weapons interact with spirits, acting as if both incorporeal and corporeal, because then there can be physical interaction.
I've checked the core book, the three HoH books, Covenants, and Lion and the Lily. So all of the other statements about ghosts in the books we're using are either quiet on it or specifically disagree with that one line from the core book. I think someone mentioned you might run Calebais. If you're using that and there are any ghosts, do they have Wound Levels?
You'll have to forgive me; when I saw RoPM, I stopped reading as it's not an allowed source. I'm not going to get into any discussion where non-allowed sources rear their heads and confuse things. I don't care if they contradict what's in the core book; I won't entertain them.
With that said, I took a look at the ghosts in Calebais. They do, in fact, have wound penalties/levels. However, there is some information in the section on these ghosts that bring to light some interesting information.
So, the ghosts in Calebais can in fact interact with the real world through casting spells, but only if they have the applicable power to make their spells "real". This tells me that there should be a way to cast spells that will in fact affect ghosts. All ghosts are showing their Might as being Mentem (hey, I'm just repeating what I'm seeing in the book), and even the spell I quoted above is PeMe (general). This tells me that we could generate a house rule of some kind that would allow spells to directly impact ghosts. Ghosts have to spend Might equal to 1 point per magnitude of the spell they are casting to affect the physical world, but y'all don't have Might. What is the equivalent of Might for a magus?
1 point per mag is the basic cost for the abilities of Mighty creatures. That rule appears to expand it out the the much more variable power of a ghostly wizard.
All Ghosts should be Mentem, No argument there.
The laying to rest thing is exactly what he doesn't want to do. A PeVi spell would destroy the Vis, I think we ruled that into canon in this game when someone asked about Demon's Eternal Oblivion.
I would think you would be able to cause injury to a Ghost with PeMe in the same way you can hurt an animal or human with PeAn or PeCo respectively. The problem is that those just deal wounds and wounds don't matter unless you can actually deal damage. If I cast the "Gain 1 light wound" spell on you 50 times you won't die, until I walk up and punch you in the nose to deal a fatal wound against their -50 defense roll, but we can't punch a ghost in the nose.
Ghost, take a look at Swords of Silver and Moonlight (HoH:TL p.140). This is almost exactly what I want to do, but the other way around. Instead of making a spiritual weapon able to affect the real world with MuMe(Te), I'm trying to make a real weapon affect the spiritual world with MuTe(Me). The core book guideline for MuTe is base 10, and then to affect metal is another +2 magnitudes. So it's pretty hard (effectively base 20) but one magnitude easier than the other way around; that makes sense since generally transforming spirits is harder than transforming physical things when we read all the different bases.
It's a nice idea, and very tempting. Even though I would lose 13 points off the casting total, 12 of those could be recovered in a single season studying the Creo tractatus later. I think the big difference is elsewhere, though. I would like my shields to work against them, too, for example. It would be nice to manage spears and shields with a single spell.
Could you use a spell which targets an object rather than designing for a specific object?
“This spell adds a ghostly presence which mirrors the objects shape in the real world.” It’s not changing the object, it is creating representation in Mentem.
Depends on the weapon, I guess. I know of at least one reference in Calebais where a spiritual weapon ignores armor and shields but affects flesh and bone.
If you want to create the reverse version of this spell - that is, make physical metal and wood harm ghosts - I'm ok with that. Same level as this spell, though, as it's literally just the other way around.
This worries me, and I'll explain why. The guidelines don't work this way. There are many examples, such as these:
MuAn(Co) base 10: Change a bird into a human.
MuCo(An) base 20: Turn a human into a bird.
MuIg(Au) base 5: Change a fire into air.
MuAu(Ig) base 4: Transform an amount of air into fire.
If we go with matching bases in both directions, we are going to have to change a lot of spells, including double-checking spells we may have already taken. We're also going to have to repeatedly decide in which direction to move bases to match things, and when doing so we'll also have to double-check that that doesn't disrupt some other parity thing. In this case, the base is listed as 10 with +2 magnitudes for metal, and that base has been used for somewhat similar transformations of Terram in canon spells.
Meanwhile, MuMe(Te) is far more powerful than MuTe(Me), the former one allowing a spirit to attack almost anything while also being typically protected from almost anything, and the latter allowing a person to attack spirits while sometimes being protected from spirits (spirits can commonly affect the world already).