Donna - weaponsmith (development)

For Magic, that's about average. Donna is accomplishing this with mundane skill at near maximum efficiency.

Yup. The funny thing with Donna's ability is that the bonus she provides stacks with other bonuses from magic, so her armor get normal armor protection + 4 that she provides by really keen skill + magic bonuses the magi want to throw that way. So the final bonus can be quite freakin' high. A +3 or +4 in itself is not very high, but start stacking it with other stuff and you are at an armor providing +12 soak or so rather fast. And that is high.

For what it's worth, the 2 books don't mesh well with each other :-/ One consider craftsmen as background mechanics, the other as PCs.
IMO, if you intend to play a craftsman, better to use C&G alone... just like you did :smiley:

Well, two seasons a year are all that are required to fulfill the background mechanic. The two free seasons would use the C&G system.

Is it possible to produce more pieces of a lesser bonus? For example, twice as many suits with a +2 bonus?
As for adapting to Lords of Men and the armor scale there: Cuirass/Jerkin, Haubergon, Hauberk, & Full. A Haubergon is equal to Partial, and Full is Full. Cuirass is half of Partial, and Hauberk is halfway between partial and full. So basically; 1/4 = Cuirass/Jerkin, 1/2 = Haubergon/Partial, 3/4 = Hauberk, 1/1 = Full. The LoM Protection & Load Values are intended to work piecemeal. Full Chain Mail in RAW equals in LoM a Full Suit of Mail worn with a Gambeson and a helmet. Reading further, I see that plate & mail is indeed latter in period. So toss that idea out.
Anyway, just focusing on the mail. I think it would be fair to say you can produce 2.6 Full suits (P+7/L3.5), 3.9 Hauberks (P+5/L2.5), 5.2 Haubergons (P+4/L2), and 6.5 Mail Jerkins (P+3/L1.5).

Great pictures, Xavi :smiley:

Sorry, I missed the fact there was another page to this thread :laughing: :blush:

This way lies madness :wink:

IMO, forget covenants.

Don't factor her in cost reductions. Instead, just determine what she creates, and add these to the covenant stores, just like a magi creating items for the covenant. Don't do cost reductions.
Assume this maintains her business just fine, and she also gets a companion-like lifestyle, including 2 free seasons to do what she likes.
Like marko says, she can do extra work aside, should she really want to (But why? She already gets all that she needs! I agree with you this'd gain her a reputation for avarice). If she wants to improve her business, she can try to have the covenant pay for it.

If you want to do her craftman style, I'd say do the same thing (no cost reductions, add to stores), but forget the lifestyle (and the free seasons), she's on her own outside, must pay for all her expenses, and the covenant is her primary contractor, paying her 14lbs per year. She gets labor points equal to her 114*(14)/20. If she wants more, she can bargain with the covenant. But I really, really would forego that.

Labor points are very different from cash, they aren't given to the character, and can be used for improvements like innovation and better materials. treating the covenant as her primary customer for labor etc. would work just fine, with the covenant taking 70% of her profits (either I goods or coin) in exchange for setting her up. Then as her business improves so does the covenants investment... though looking back at some of the previous posts that will have to wait until after she proves herself...

I should also disclose a point about some less than transparent language in the rules- exceptional items get a bonus of +1 per 3 points the workshop total exceeds the 'craft level' but it is less than transparent as to which craft level to use. In my games (and the calculations here) I assume the base craft level is the one required for standard items (6), while I have seen others who believe it should be above the level for excellent items (15) or superior items (12). Since an item made with a workshop total of 12 gets a +1 to one aspect, it would seem strange to me to then base the bonus off a craft level of 15.

Two more points- 1) the weapon bonus is also a bonus for being enchanted. So if you take Donna's +4 sword and attempt to lay enchantments on it, you get a +4 to your lab total. Also with craft magic she can in fact craft a sword which is enchanted... at this point she effectively has something like an equivalent lab total of 35.

I know, but labor points don't actually exists, whereas money do, and can buy better materials/tools/everything you need^^

Really, you've got a system for abstracting a NPC, supported by a covenant and contributing to its finances, and you're trying to mix it with another system, designed to model a PC operating his own workshop and money supply. This is orange and apples :laughing:

I mostly skimmed through this part, I confess :blush: : Maestros were interesting to me (larta magi?), whereas uber-craftsmen weren't :smiley: So I'll really need to read it again :-/ Luckily, you gave enough info for now.

IIRC, there's something worse, in that good quality items give +1 to one activity (say, a sword that gives +1 to attack OR Defense), whereas excellent items may give their bonus (which is greater than +1) to several things, so that a +4 sword would give +4 to attack AND Défense.

Since superior items (EF 12) give +1, I'd say excellent items (EF 15) give +2, +1 per full 3 points (so +3 for EF 18, +4 for EF 21...).
Your own rule means that an exceptional items of EF 12 would give +2 to 1 or more activities, whereas a Superior item of the same EF would only give +1 to one activity. This makes no sense to me.

The intention, however, may very well have been like this:

  • Superior items (EF 12) apply +1 to one activity
  • Excellent items (base EF 15) may apply +1 to more than one activity, +1 per 3 points above that.

LoM p. 136 (paraphrased): Superior Armor grants +1 Protection, Superior weapons +1 Attack, and Superior Shields +1 Defense. Excellent Quality Items grant a bonus of +2, +3, or even higher. For Weapons, the bonus applies to both Attack and Defense rolls.
I House Ruled that, for Weapons, the bonus is to Attack and Damage. This is because it makes more sense to me and because 4th edition did it that way; and no one has complained or voiced a contrary opinion.
Anyway, I suggest as follows...

  • Superior Items: (EF 12) Grants +1 bonus
  • Excellent Items: (EF 15+) Grants a +2 bonus, plus another +1 for every three full points beyond that. For Weapons, the bonus applies to Attack and Damage. The limit is +3 for Inexpensive & Standard Armaments, but may be higher for Expensive Armaments.

Then at this point they will all be +3 rather than +4, the book has a hard limit of ability/3, so only swords will ever get to +5 (when assistant and workshop bonuses are factored in), unless of course the ability itself is raised (for 50 xp+25 from affinity...)

I am comfortable with these numbers. So let it be written, so let it be done.

I believe the intent was that the weapons are not supernaturally sharp (Edge of the Rasor just gives +2 damage), but rather lighter and more balanced. So you can wield them more easily, as well as parry.

Now, since armor and shield both add to "defense", applying the bonus like you do make all bonuses cancel each other nicely, whereas otherwise, the defense gets the upper edge.

Not that I care much, anyway :smiley:

Hum... I can't see why a short sword or single-handed axe couldn't be just as great as a... trident? Or a legendary lance/axe/hammer be less "powerful" than a sword.

Good point. Allow me to contemplate that.

I thought about another thing.

As better weapons require increasingly high skill, it might be interesting to have their cost follow a similar Pattern, reflecting that crafts-wo-men on par with donna will be rarer and sell for more than usual.
Like, QP cost : (2*cost as an art) per bonus

So a superior sword would cost 2qp (21) instead of 3
An excellent (+2 to soak) armor would cost 6qp (2
3) instead of 6
An excellent (+3 to Charm-First Impressions and Leadership-Soldiers) cape would cost 2*(26) = 24qps instead of 18
An excellent (+4 to damage) knife would cost 20qps (2
10) instead of 12

I think I see what you're getting at here, and I like it, but I'm not following your math.

I also like it. You might not follow the math because the example +3 item is a "double item" (bonus to 2 different things) and so its cost is counted double. If it was a +3 to a single thing it would be a 12 QP item (2*6)

So the scale is (for each bonus provided):
+1 2QP (21)
+2 6QP (2
3)
+3 12QP (26)
+4 20QP (2
10)
+5 30QP (215)
+6 42QP (2
21)

Quite nice, really :slight_smile:

Given the rules in city and guild regarding income streams, I would say there is a certain degree of reputation involved as ell (which is why a craftsman can improve their revenue level with labor points if they are even slightly above standard), but that is probably far more complex than what you are looking for. I wouldn't necessarily charge by the number of things it enhances so much as by category of goods. Food, for example, will add to healing rolls, birthing rolls, and aging rolls as a quality of life modifier, and might provide a bonus to some skills with a feast as a setting, but those will be uncommon circumstances. Realistically with excellent or higher goods there could be any number of uses for the bonus (for example, they all add to lab totals to enchant the item in question. Presumably for food at would mean charged items... I'm starting to think we need a master chef...

At this point I am thinking Donna should join Fleur and Fedora since she will apparently be traveling with Fleur to her new abode.

So, to you, you wouldn't charge more for a sword that enhances attack and damage than for an armor that only adds to defense because both are of the same category? :open_mouth: Or am I misunderstanding you?

Also, judging by category... Who's to say that a +1 shortsword is more of less useful/costly than a hammer that gives +1 to craft shortswords, or a fine suit that give +1 to guile (posing as a noble)? Likewise, a master baker could be more valued by some magi, whereas others could prefer a weaponsmith. This depends so much on the character and situation that this would be a quagmire :cry:

What I am saying is that if I were new in town and people don't know that my swords provide a +3 bonus then I probably won't be able to sell them for above standard market price. As I build up a customer base, the price would go up... but that is on the craftsman's side, and my point is that if you even break it down into the categories in covenants (provisions, buildings, lab supplies, armor and weapons, etc.) a little more detail would make sense, and just caveat that these are the prices where the quality is known, and better deals may be able to be found in stories where a well qualified craftsman may still be a relative unknown.

I like this formula.
Don't forget I am making an exception for +1/+1 swords of Toledo steel. But that will be the only one.
If a shield can add to two scores, why not Defense & Soak? Captain America's shield adds to his soak I am certain :smiley: