Eleni of Miletos

a few issues already:

  1. hermetic experience requires covenant upbringing if taken before age 14
  2. nightwalker is gained by initiation into a hedge tradition, it cannot be an inherited trait
  3. A 10 year old ingesting hallucinogens is not tone appropriate for my games

Yes, I wrote that up before I saw your reply to my earlier post. I will probably replace it with Educated.

A house rule? I shall remove it then.

Is it possible to have a version of Ecstatic Magic (F&F, p.93)? Replacing the akellare with once every seven days or once a Moon (as in the duration)? If not then I will dump the shamanic aspect of the character for something else.

Inherited Virtues & Flaws are supposed to have possible triggers. That's why I gave 1 possible trigger and the default 'manifests by the time they are adult.' I was not advocating role-playing a 10-year old taking a sniff of the smoke at the Oracle of Delphi's sanctum. :expressionless:

Question: Born with a Caul (HMRE, p.105, Born with a Caul insert) without the weakness of losing it is a Minor Story Flaw?

On the Nightwalker Virtue, i.e. ekstasis.

... It is a power that arises without training, and has no corresponding Ability, because characters do not become better at straying over time through practice.
-- HMRE, p.106, Powers in Detail

hmre p. 116 " there seems to be a mechanism that divides those who are called to serve as nightwalkers, and act as their community’s guards, from the Gifted whose supernatural taint prevents them from integrating with society. "
so apparently the Gift and the nightwalker virtue are mutually exclusive.

in addition the nightwalker concept, while certainly interesting, would require potentially running multiple fertility battles every year, which would bog the game down significantly, as well as removing the covenant wealth variation rules from the modifications that I am using.

Ecstatic Magic is apparently a folk magic mystery, requiring initiation even after Gifted Sorginak have been opened, so it would not be appropriate either.

The main issue seems to be that spirit walking is, in Ars magica, generally an advanced form of magic, and may be something the character could pursue after their gauntlet, or you might decide to keep this idea for a future character as other tribunals open up in the game.

Quite the opposite! :laughing: It's a more primitive form of magic, what we in the modern world would call shamanic magic.

This does change things a bit. I'll be removing the shamanic bits and continue working on the character

key phrase "in ars magica"
also some see more primitive magics as being more advanced- in terms of AM, spirit walking generally requires some form of initiation aside from nightwalkers who are, as I cited, companions rather than magi.

shamanism was touched on in third edition, but that was more akin to faerie magic in 5th edition in terms of the power of storytelling, and as I recall did not include an astral projection component either. Arguably from a hermetic perspective spirit walking is astral projection which is really more of a late renassaince than primitive ability, the term being coined in the 19th century, though similar abilities were described in multiple cultures in differing forms. The point here is that "out of body" is not the same thing as "shamanic", and if you want a shamanic character that should probably be your companion character or a future mage-equivalent, since it is decidedly non-hermetic. I could certainly design a shamanic hedge tradition for later in the game, though such a character would likely be from Novgorod, not Thebes- though they could be from Transylvania given the historical events of that region, or of course be preserved in an ex miscellania tradition.

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I am still missing 3 points of V&F, but I think she's most of the way done.

Done with the V&F and Abilities. Waiting for confirmation so that I can fill in the minutae.

I can't find a reference for the evil eye as a flaw

I feel like it was a thing in 4th Ed but got rolled into Disfigured in 5th.

Yeah, it's in 4th with the same modifier as Disfigured.

which means you have 8 points in flaws and 10 points in virtues if we "gap" one of the deft characteristics with unaging since they never apply at the same time.

@dc444 @silveroak

The Evil Eye, RoP:D, p.135

Why would there be a gap? Know-It-All is major as is Turbulence Prone.If there's a gap it's in the Virtues since Eleni has 2 Inherited Virtues.

know it all can be major or minor, and you didn't specify

the gap I am referring to though is a time gap- in that you don't have to have unaging paid for at the same time as your childhood virtues.

the evil eye is not a valid flaw- if you want to take it as a note on disfigured that is fine, but it does not count by itself, and the character won't be approved with it listed as a flaw.

other than that she is fine

  • note: just realized I had your focus on certamen down twice on my spreadsheet- evil eye is not a valid flaw, but she doesn't need a flaw, unless you want another virtue. It is not required, so let me know which way you want to go with this.
    keep in mind that you are going to have to replace a lot of virtues andflaws as you get older as things stand.


Mea Culpa on the Know-It-All, but yes it is the Major version.

Wait, what? Time gap? When Eleni reaches 14 there won't be a time gap. 4 x Deft Characterists vs. Late Bloomer + Major Know-It-All.

May I ask why it's not a valid flaw? It fits the Theban Tribunal quite well.

it may fit the Theban tribunal, but it is not a flaw anywhere in the rules for 5th edition

what I mean by a time gap is that you have childhood virtues that end before inherited virtues kick in, so you have essentially pre-chosen the replacement virtue instead of using a new virtue.


I already gave you the book and page number

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Also, I checked the math, there is no time gap

Child Virtue: Boundless Energy [Maturation: 14],
Child Virtue: Deft Characteristic (Dex) [Maturation: 14],
Child Virtue: Deft Characteristic (Int) [Maturation: 14],
Child Virtue: Deft Characteristic (Pre) [Maturation: 14],
Child Flaw: Know-It-All (Major) [Maturation: 14],
Child Flaw: Late Bloomer [Maturation: 14],

Inherited Virtue: Minor Magical Focus (Certamen) [Manifestation: Opening the Arts],
Inherited Flaw: Busybody (Covenfolk) [Manifestation: During Apprenticeship],

Inherited Virtue: Unaging [Manifestation: 21],
Child Flaw: Turbulence Prone [Maturation: 21],

missed that after the discussion about 4th edition- however it isn't at the place you sited for ROP:D. there are flaws listed there of Karaite magic and outsider(minor) for being jewish.

for calculating time gaps you would match virtues to virtues and flaws to flaws: the idea is that the inherited virtue or flaw replaces the childhood one, not that the mutually annihilate.

I am sorry, but look again. It is the very first flaw listed under Flaws.