Fan Grimoire: Spells to grant magical perception

Doesn't the errata basically means that a group spell is essentially one magnitude higher than granting it to one per? Since the base is base+1...
Or am I reading it wrong?

The way I read the page 150 guideline, you start with the Personal spell + 1 magnitude. The Personal spell should include the modifier for which Sensory input is going to be used.
Then, you still need to factor in magnitude increases for Target and Range. So usually +1 for Range: Touch, and +2 for Target: Group.
My interpretation (and I insist, it is only my interpretation), is that the +1 magnitude added to Personal spell is to take in consideration the requisit InFo on the MuMe.
The fact that duration is factored in at the Personal level spell or at the final spell is not really relevant since it will lead to the same final result.
For example:
Let's take InVi Base 4: Discern the Art of vis.
To identify it by tasting will be based on 4 + 0 (taste = Ind).
To make your grog able to identify vis by taste: Base will be 4+1, T: Ind (one grog), D: Dia (+1), R: Touch (+1), for a final Mu(In)Me(Vi) 15, to let your grog able to taste vis for 2 minutes.

Being a bit more pragmatic, you would like your grog to fetch virtus in the Faerie forest.
Base is still 4 but with + 4 (Sight), so 20
Then Base is 20 +1; add: T:Ind (still only one person), D: Sun (+2), R: Touch (+1), for a final Mu(In)Me(Vi) 40.
But if it is only you who want to see the type of Art vis, then it will merely be InVi Base 4, D: Sun (+2), R: Per, T: Sight (+4), for a final InVi 30.

So to grant magical sense to one person is 2 magnitudes higher than the Personal version, is a MuMe with InFo requisit. And if a group is targeted, then another 2 magnitudes will be required.

AFAIK, the general rule is that the higher Target is used. So if you want to use a spell to cut off a person's arm, on a group, you need target Group (because group is +2, while Part is +1), but because Group is a higher Target, you don't add +1 for Part.

Yes the Base is +1 Mag, along with the changes to the TeFo. And you are correct that the most expensive Target is what must be paid.

I don't know what Ezechiel is going on about. Granting a magical sense to a single other person does not require MuMe or the higher Base. He also keeps mixing up Sight (a Range) and Vision (a Target) which messes me up when reading his post.

The difference between granting the ability to "Discern the Art of Vis" by vision for ~ half a day to yourself verse someone else is only a change of Range from Personal to Touch. So InVi 30 (Base 4, P/S/V) verse InVi 35 (Base 4, T/S/V).

EDIT: Grating the ability to "Discern the Art of Vis" by vision for ~ half a day to a group is where things change. The Base becomes Mu(In)Me(Vi) Base 5. You require at least R: Touch so we leave that alone to match the above, as well as no change to the Duration to match the above. You need Group, however Vision is more expensive (+2 vs +4) and so you use that value. Formula is Mu(In)Me(Vi) 40 (Base 5, T/S/V). Would include a note after that there is a +1 Mag to the Base so it can affect multiple people.

If instead of Vision the spell was to T: Taste, Touch or Smell, then you would use +2 since you use the most expensive Target (Group is +2, while Taste, Touch and Smell are equal or less than).

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Individual -> Group and Part -> Group aren't really double-Targets where you choose the larger, but how Group switches to mass/weight/volume/etc. Similarly, consider what happens when you want to go from an Individual of x100 size to affecting a whole bunch of x100 size things. Do you just use the larger Target? No, that doesn't work. So if you don't, then there is an error in this statement about using the more expensive Target normally. This seems like a mistaken analogy that is only going to further complicate things.

On top of this, my problem with the most expensive Target being paid with a double-Target here is that you can always grow things bigger for free. E.g. Oh, I'm using Vision/Group, so I might as well make it Vision/Group x100 since I get that big boost for free. That strongly inclines me toward thinking that interpretation is incorrect, the correct interpretation being you do (Base + sense = what is need to grant to a person - yourself) + 1 to do the MuMe shift + whatever you need for R/D/T (this Target being the size of the group).

Of note, this erratum is to the 1st printing and is already present in the 2nd printing, so it probably shouldn't be hyped as an erratum too much since for many people it is not an erratum, only for those of us with physical, 1st-printing books and referring to those over anything we might have from the 2nd printing (including the pdf). I'm not sure what was in the first printing; I'd have to dig up my old physical copy to find out. I just searched and could not find a single canonical use of this mechanic, so there is nothing concrete to settle this 2-magnitude differential in readings. Since for some reason @David_Chart changed things from 1st printing to 2nd printing, in theory he was trying to clarify things, though unfortunately things aren't quite clear, especially with no canonical example to lean on. So I tagged him in hopes he might weigh in.

I'll very much second the request because I'm not sure the community can agree on how to use RAW. From what I can tell, anything we would try to agree on will contradict a portion of the corebook.

Many of the Mu(In)Me(Fo) spells for T: Group you discuss warp their recipients or become rituals, may continuously eat up Vis and generally become risky to cast. Casting them on grogs and companions also requires serious explanations, what their new senses are good for, what not, how to use them, and what to do if they get botched.

In our saga we provided companions and grogs with a magical sense in another way.

It was about an enhanced version of ArM5 p.136 Shriek of the Impending Shafts with An, Co and Te requisites. Of course, first the grogs needed to be trained how to use space to avoid incoming 'shrieking' missiles without running into each other. For this training the covenant had no oodles of Vis to burn.

So a magus imbued his book talisman with

Shriek of the Impending Missiles; Effect Level: 30; Effect Details: R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Hearing, Requisites: Animal, Corpus, Terram, Unlimited use; Arts: InHe 20; Design: Base 2, +2 Sun, +3 Hearing, +1 Touch

The effect was activated by touching a grog's head with the talisman. This way, an entire turb of grogs could be given the magical sense far quicker and cheaper than by casting a T: Group ritual on them, without warping them and without any risk of a casting botch. So after some training the turb began to trust the new fighting style in loose formation, the magus bestowing the magic sense and the touch of his talisman.

I also think this seems clear.

Obviously, it isn't. The intent is that the Base for the MuMe spell is the magnitude of the R:Per, D:Inst, T:Appropriate Sense InFo spell, +1. RDT then increase it. The explicit references to Range and Target are because it must be at least R: Touch and T: Group to give the sense to multiple people.

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So the final spell basically 3 magnitudes higher than granting a magical sense. (+1 to base + sense granted and +2 Group)

As long as you assume that you factored in the duration in the initial spell, and it becomes a Mu(In)Me(Fo) vs InFo. Achievable, but requires some dedication.
Very likely, a Ring version becomes more manageable.

Thank you!

If you are granting the sense to only one person you can use InVi at R:Touch, T:Taste. You only need MuMe to grant it to groups. So:

1 grog - Base 4, R: Touch (+1), D: Dia (+1), T: Taste (+0), final InVi 10

Up to 10 grogs (group) - Base 4+0 (Taste), +1 MuMe, R: Touch (+1), D: Dia (+1), T: Group (+2), final Mu(In)Me(Vi) 25

Yes. It would be Mu(In)Me(Vi) 15 for a single grog, but unless you have a really weird combination of Virtues and Flaws, that's never going to be a sensible option. (I'm not even sure there are Virtues and Flaws that can do that — is there anything that boosts casting totals based on the primary Arts, and is not limited by requisites?)

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In this case Deft Mentem, if casting silently (in the absence of other Virtues, Flaws, Mastery etc.).

My initial thinking is that InVi R: Touch, D: Dia, T: Taste, you are targetting the taste, but whom taste ? T: Ind is still missing, since it is replaced by T:Taste, how do you touch "Taste" of somebody else than yourself ?

I might be splitting hair, but it is strange, even inconsistent with the rule, that you can grant magical sense to one person without much effort, but requires an intricate MuMe with multiple requisits to grant it to a group of person.

From an effect point of view, MuMe, you are changing the mind of a target to get access to a new sensory input, InFo is this new sensory input. Why would it be possible to grant this magical sense to one person without MuMe but MuMe would be required for a group of person ?

When the mage is the only target, with R:Per, I can understand: the magic is feeding the mage the info he needs, and because he is a mage and he controls the spell, he does not need to transform his mind (MuMe not needed), but for anybody else the mind transformation is required.

Because the playtesters screamed blue murder when I put that in a draft.

Logic and consistency can only take you so far.

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That's fair :slight_smile: and it is cannon.

It is a missed opportunity.
There is almost no benefit in researching and learning a Group version considering the challenge and the multiple mid-to high level Arts that are required. Just learn the Touch version and spend 10 rounds casting to your turba. Investing in mastery and multi-cast would be easier than building your Art to the required level to invent the spell.
Also, it downgraded the value making potions with R: Per, T:Sensory, D: Dia or Sun, that could be another alternative to circumvent the MuMe variant.

I guess I am filing that in my House Rule booklet.

Thanks for the clarification, I won't be pestering you with this topic anymore :smiley:

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