Fan Grimoire?

EDIT: Fixed the Base unit of water.

Did a post on the spell "Route the Turbulent River" and realized it was too big when I hit the post size limit.


The reason you need Size is because of the average size and flow rate of a river verse how much this spell can affect. Without Size this spell can affect 200 cubic paces of water.

While the spell is active how much of the flow rate you can overcome determines how much of the river you can divert. This is what the spell is targeting, since this is the "currents". Some fraction of that would compound over the duration giving you how big a diversion you created, which would be compared to the total volume of the river that is diverted after the spell expires, assuming it does not just dead end and create a side branch. To avoid that requires your split reach somewhere lower than the river with enough capacity to take the rivers volume up to that point. This would result in the original path becoming a side branch that eventually transitions into marshlands or a dead branch lake most likely (over a very long time period, talking years at the fastest).

Note that cutting through solid rock will not happen with this spell since you are talking about something that takes centuries or millennia. At best you will be cutting through rocky soil or clay (~10%), which would be a fraction of the lengths listed later which are for soft soil or sand.

Base 4 water is walking speed, while Base 5 is jogging/running speed. That is roughly a 4x increase, so without Size the spell could affect about 800 cubic paces per second of currents [using round number for ease of math]. Note that the maximum here is the flow of the river you are diverting, since you can not flow more water than is available. Even if there is more total capacity in a section you would rapidly burn through that and be left with the flow rate.

Let us compare that to the Nile, which is the greatest river in ME. A 1 pace long section of the Nile is on average ~36,600 cubic paces of water and flows at ~3,700 cubic paces per second on average (it is a very slow river). While the spell is active it could divert ~21.6% of the Nile's flow and cuts a path that could hold at best 1.1 miles of its total capacity every day. Moon last between 15 and 29 days depending on when it is cast verse the phase of the moon. If you are trying to take all of the Nile you would end up with a 16~31 mile side branch.

The Rhine is about ~3,800 cubic paces per second and ~4,400 cubic paces per 1 pace length. While active the spell could divert ~21% of the Rhine's flow and cut a path 9 miles at best capable of holding its total capacity every day. At best (again cutting through soft material) after a Moon you would have something that could divert all of the Rhine for 135 to 270 miles.

The Grand Rhone is about ~2,240 cubic paces per second. However getting historical numbers for its average volume per pace is proving difficult, since it has been so heavily manipulated to make it suitable for shipping and avoiding it being marshland. This is actually good and bad for the spell. Areas with strong buildup are basically immune, while those with minimal buildup are more vulnerable. Those sections of the Grand Rhone are the only area where this spell might work on a river without size, though it would most likely take the full Moon duration.

While comparatively tiny you are not diverting the Petite Rhone because it is through deep solid rock canyons. However a version of this spell with some degree of Unnatural and +1 Size could cause its water to flow up one of those canyon faces while it lasted.


Results with Size

  • Nile: +2 Size would give you your max diversion. That would give you ~5 miles per day through soft terrain (~0.5 miles per day rocky/clay) of sufficient size to reroute the whole river. As the Nile is the only river I did math on with far larger capacity than flow, thought I would include why the flow is the limit. Its extra capacity would give you about 2 minutes of 4,000 cubic paces per second flow before it was all used and you were capped at the 3,700 cubic paces per second of the river.
  • Rhine: +2 Size would give you your max diversion. That would give you ~43 miles per day through soft terrain (~4.29 miles per day rocky/clay) of sufficent size to reroute the whole river.
  • Grand Rhone: +1 Size would give you 17.8% of your max diversion. You need +2 Size to hit 100%. The spell has no effect in strong (fitted stone) buildup and slow chipping through weak (rocky soil/clay) buildup like earthen berms.
  • Petite Rhone: Spell has no effect. It would take an Unnatural version that could flow water up a cliff to do anything and only have an effect while the spell lasted.

Overall it looks like +2 Size is what is needed to fully divert the current of a river. More doesn't help you since you are moving water away faster than the river can replenish it and less gives you something around 10% (+1 Size) or 1% (no Size).

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Just a quick edit for you: a Base Individual of water is 20 cubic paces.

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Damn it.

EDIT: I started redoing the math and then realized I messed up somewhere else. My math (corrected for 20 cubic pace base individual) is only sufficient to control the water at the point you cause the redirection to happen. This would allow you to cause a redirect but have no control of it past a very short distance and so it would most likely loop back into the original path of the river. In other words only a very minimal change to the path. So while +1 Size would be sufficient to control the current for any river at a given very narrow length it would only have control at that point and lack the total capacity move beyond that.

You actually need enough capacity to control a volume of water that would fill your total length cut to maintain control for that length. At minimum you need enough capacity to control all of the water at the point you are splitting off. Redone math taking this into account.

  • Nile: +1 Size would let you control all of the current. However you need to have a capacity of 63.7 million cubic paces per mile of length that your diversion is. +5 Size would be sufficient for ~1.25 miles and the minimum needed, while +6 Size would be sufficient for ~12.55 miles. That is about your best case, since while there is a potential of 16~31 miles in a Moon that is only for the easiest terrain. Most likely you are looking at half that.

  • Rhine: +1 Size would let you control all of the current. However you need to have a capacity of 7.66 million cubic paces per mile of length that your diversion is. +4 Size would be sufficient for ~1.05 miles and the minimum needed, while +5 Size would be sufficient for ~10.44 miles. Once again +6 Size is most likely your best bet since that would cover ~104.4 miles and your best cut distance is 135~270 miles through the easiest terrain in a Moon.

  • Grand Rhone: Once again +1 Size is sufficient for the current. Minimum is most likely +4 Size, though I don't have good numbers to figure out how much length that would be. You are still dealing with lots of man made barriers for much of its length.

  • Petite Rhone: About 1/5th the total of the Grand Rhone, so most likely +3 Size needed. Mostly solid stone for most of its length so immune to this spell without Unnatural and flowing up cliffs. This is only good for while the spell is active.


Results
Minimum +4 Size for most rivers, +5 Size for the Nile.

Optimal +6 Size for a single casting, which will let you control out to the limit that could be reached in Moon if most of the path is soft terrain. For the hardest material it could cut through this would allow control for 10~12 castings of the spell. If you do not reach a location sufficient to become the new path then this will be create a side branch and needs sufficient capacity to reach back to the original split to continue working.

Further EDIT: +5 Size is the maximum it could have without being a ritual. Not optimal for total it could do but if we want to keep it from being a Ritual that is the limit. Of course I lean towards causing a permanent change in the route of a river should be a Ritual for "Great Effect".

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Were those necromancy spells some of mine? I have a hazy memory of writing all sort of strange necromancy spells

I can neither confirm nor deny that your spells have caused dissension in the ranks of the auditores.

For those who have been working on this project with me (thanks all of you! Itzhak especially), I've done another pass on the Corpus spells, hit a bunch of them. I've also tried to start putting at least some comment on any Spell I am looking at, so that Google will inform me of when it has updates - this makes continued interaction much easier.

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I will say you had me making cannibal jokes after a while.

Hey there guys, I would like to know if the work you are doing here is available to be consulted somewhere. I checked through the post and i didn´t see any link to the summary you are working on. With the effort you had already done it will probably would be of great use for sure as it is.

I wouldn´t mind checking anything, but I feel I am too noob to be allowed to check most of the work you do or you include.

Only once all the spells have been done, we will do another pass to make sure the language is clear, and then it will go to Layout, so will be a few months for it to be public.

Ok, I will be checking the post then to learn of new spells, but in the while I found the Iron tome had 800+ new spells. So I have for some long time too checking that and many others threads and webs called in this post.

Thanks for your work people.

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Keep in mind that some of the spells reviewed have underwent changes from what you see online. Some just had a change of text, mostly for clarification. Some went minor changes, but some went through more severe changes. Some spells have become lower level, but some have gone up in level, mostly because the base used was incorrect.

While I like the tome stuff and my group has used several things from it as inspiration in our game, there are lots of math errors and interpretations that are clearly HR in it. So if you are going to take anything from it you need to make sure that it follows your groups interpretation of RAW and RAI.

I asked for the link as I supposed many has been changed, asked for requisitos or even deleted. But without a way yo see what you are working on I use other stuff, until you do the grimmoire.

Some questions hace already arisen from the Iron bound tome spells. But i will use another post to cuestiĂłn them.

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Topic related note, I'd love to push through and finish Muto and Perdo Corpus, I think we've mostly talked those out.

I'm happy to help with questions about the irpnboundtomb spells and why some are the way they are. That said, the group doing the merge and reinterpretation know their stuff, and a few minds are better than one.

With the recent comments on Size, I think we should drop those PeAn kill-an-insect type spells. It's likely to vary a lot between troupes, and I think it's best for us not to seem to set a precedent.

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I am fine with dropping Insects-killing spells, it is very niche and Saga dependent.

I will support this for numerous reasons, not the least of which reduces our editing.

Trying to make sure i've hit every remaining spell here.
More questions about sizes, this time with humans. We have a number of size changing spells in our grimoire, and we have been using base 4 for the size changes - was there an errata to Hugh's Assume the Stature of the Giants of Eld? Because that one was base 3 and has stats included.

Base 3 does not change Str/Qui. But MuCo says you can follow MuAn for some guidelines. MuAn base 4 changes Str/Qui with Size, so MuCo base 4 should allow that.

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