Not necesarly to unvirtue anyone, how many points is going to worth apt student? Because to me need to be very very justified that a magus is willing to consent the lost of one lab assisstant or steward or whatever just to teach it... Remember an aprentice is private propiety, its a thing.
I woulnt allow:
Past 7 years old
More than 2 teaching season per years allowing one practice and one exposure season
Past 11 years old
More than 1 season teaching and you can try to convince me to more than 2 seasons of practice
In whole gauntlet no more than 7 seasons teaching arts
During gauntlet never more than 18 teaching seasons as apt student unless driven or simillar flaws
Yes is going to be very tricky but if its covenant raised i exige tons of lores, guile, carouse and other social abilities
Creating powerhouse apprentices is a great way to create stories; the Bonisagus apprentice-thief, the faerie troubles, the infernal temptations to both master and student, the simple fact that giving that much power to a teenager is dangerous. If the apprentice is using library books, have them get damaged. If the apprentice is getting tuition from covenfolk, make sure their Gift penalty applies in not just mechanical but in interesting story ways.
From observing various players, the first time they get an apprentice the player goal is to make the most potent apprentice they can. I've seen season upon season poured into instruction of the apprentice, resulting in a character at Gauntlet that is as potent as someone else 10 years out. The thing is... these super-apprentices don't do anything for the magus, and they are only a problem if you intend to let the player play them after their Gauntlet finishes. When the same apprentice leaves, gets into trouble, and now needs reigning in then all the power they were granted becomes a liability.
So while they can be frightening munchkins, they also leave the players' hands. They become frightening story hooks, made more so because the players were the ones who chose to give them that power.
In the saga I play in, we had a magus do exactly this with his first apprentice; spoiled her rotten. The apprentice, now 20 years out of Gauntlet, still makes casual demands of her pater because that's what she's become used to.
'I needed a rook of vis so I just took it from your lab, okay? I'll pay you back one day soon. Thanks Dad.'
'I pissed off a faerie lord and it demanded recompense so I told it you will sort it out, okay? Thanks Dad.'
'I totaled my lab again so I just took yours over. I'll only use it for a couple of seasons while you make me a new one. Thanks Dad.'
I have no problem with creating a powerhouse apprentice and then letting the player use it as a character.
If a player wishes to invest 15 years of game time in making a replacement charaacter then more power to him. I personally think such a player would be better off spending the 15 years researching his own Mystery cult and Self Initiating all sorts of cool virtues.
Is this really any differant to researching one of the Ancient Magics or developing a Great Hermatic Project? Or spending a decade creating a stunning magic item or a Bjorner progressing to one of the higher level heart beasts?
These are all big long term activities that you can easily base many many stories around. After this much effort players should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of thier labours.
I once whanted to do a super apprectice but i told myself that i would teach him/er not much arts. Lets say outgauntlet with 50 points in arts 90 as much. Allow him/er to be very powerfull in a mundane way and face the way itself. But that was my concept.
My apprentice will have two seasons a year for the first three years to be useful. then once a year until the third trimester, when once a year is my study, once a year a selection of books or the use of my lab for another season, if she succeeds the test. (I plan to test my apprentice, another player, twice, once after five years to start teaching formulaic spells, once after ten years to allow for more freedom.)
Say what you will about Episode 1-3 of Star Wars, but it makes total sense that Darth Vader was an over-indulged, petulant teen. So, if your magi are treating their apprentices like spoiled children, there is a model to follow. I'm also more inclined to say training an apprentice is something that, by and large happens30+ years post-gauntlet. At that time, a magus is better able to take more advantage if using an apprentice as a lab slave for closer to 45 seasons out of 60. And for everything else, when the magus isn't doing something in the LAN, or teaching the apprentice... There is always distilling Vis or fixing arcane connection or other assigned busy work.
I agree that the most efficient use of an apprentice will likely happen ~30yrs out of Gauntlet, and the Rhine Tribunal agrees as well - with their requirements for taking an apprentice. That said, not every magus takes the most efficient route. Some magi will dote on their apprentices, and spoil them rotten. Others will use them as a slave, or even as a disposable resource that, if lucky, will survive the 15 years of apprenticeship unscathed. Most will fall somewhere between these two extremes.
I do think there's a player tendancy to want to create a 'statistically superior' character, especially on their first time through that aspect of the system. Which is fine, especially if the master is the doting kind. After all, magi of all stripes engage in all kinds of other inefficient or downright bizarre passtimes; doting on their (kidnapped) child is fairly tame by comparison.
This does bring up a seperate question (which may warrant another thread): how to handle PC apprentices - both during their apprenticeship and post-Gauntlet.
I've got an idea for something new for this thread. But I'm stuck trying to figure something out. I need to find a way to grant an animal Intelligence, whether by a Virtue or by a guideline I can use for Personal Power as a Virtue. I'm trying to make sure I can back this up from RAW, and the only guaranteed way I can find right now is via the familiar bond. (And there is the thing from Calebais.)
By RAW, you can grant Intelligence to a tree; and you can also change an animal to a tree...
Personally, given the Herbam guideline, I'd assume that you can do the same to an animal, and that "major unnatural change" (base level 15, with a Mentem requisite) does it.
Technically it only awakens the conciousness of the tree, though Stir the Slumbering Tree does seem to indicate it is a human-ish intelligence.
Good trick!
Though as I understand from RoP: M, you technically just interact with the spirit of the tree, and that might not be what Chris needs.
OK. So given that we accept an animal can have human Intelligence (need not be high, just not Cunning) by some guideline (need not be Hermetic), then this should be available within three Minor Virtues (Personal Power, constant, reduced cost). The following assumes three points of virtues have been put toward that. The next choice is magus, companion, or grog. Technically any role could be chosen, though there won't be much flexibility left for a grog and for a magus you'll probably need some shapechanging. Now we start our character out as a large (just so it won't die quickly) lizard/snake/etc. of some sort at age 154 (for simplicity and lots of time before aging is a concern). That provides 120 + 130 x 15 = 2070 experience (plus pseudo-language at 2). The idea with human intelligence is to bypass Restricted Learning. Now we have somewhere to stick all those experience points. Of course, we could stick with Cunning, just choosing Supernatural Abilities like Second Sight. Even grosser, though, is to start with an Accelerated Ability (which isn't capped at 9 then). I figure Divine and Infernal stuff is out since we can't guarantee a soul and thus heaven and hell probably wouldn't care much. But there's a lot available from the magic or faerie realms. Also, if we take Strong Faerie Blood, too, then we can start off with another 75 years or so and still be well clear of aging issues. So, how many Abilities do you want to start with at 9?
I feel like Necroing this thread just for kicks again, I reread it and quite enjoyed it.
I think a good munchkin hinted at on page 1 would be:
Ignis ex Flambeau
Int +1 Str -2 Sta +2, Qik +4
Major Magical Focus (Damage) +3
Affinity and Puissant Creo +2
Affinity and Puissant Ignem +1
Affinity and Puissant Penetration +2
Fast Caster +1
Great Quickness +1
Flaws:
Hermetic -3
Personality -3
Story -3
Hermetic -1
Alternatively, to make him more focused:
Major Magical Focus (Cold) +1
Affinity and Puissant Perdo +2
Affinity and Puissant Ignem +1
Affinity and Puissant Penetration +2
Fast Caster +1
Flexible Formulaic Magic +3
The Flexible Formulaic Magic virtue means less spells need to be learned and mastered for maximum mayhem.
Either way, take a Technique and Form of 14 (140 xp), casting total is 53, and penetration total is easily about 60 - spell level.
I think you are overstating it as a cap. The text says that having Arts over 10 indicates an over specialized magus. And even then it is qualifies with the word probably.
That's what's known as a "soft cap" (as opposed to a "hard cap").
I have played in troupes that considered it a hard cap, but since we're talking about munchkinisms anyway, you're right, let's never mind anyway.
Here is an exceedingly muchkin spell availabe out of the gauntlet and although I posted a thread about it way back in 2009 it never really attracted much attention. I'm probably doing the game a disservice by bringing it up again.
While it looks pretty harmless, what this spell does is allow any magus with a reasonble intellego score to spont nearly any intellego spell with range personal target taste both base level parameters and get traget vison spells out of them. If you can map the information from an intellego spell to a list of tastes, then you can cast target vision spells 20 levels lower and therefore spontaneously cast nearly any imaginable intellego spell. Sight of the active magics is 20 levels lower, you can spont versions of posing the silent question that allow you to scan hundreds of targets with a glance ("this person believes that they killed the bishop, I can tell because they look like they taste like Rye bread and lemon"). It would cut through plots like a sledgehammer through a spiderweb.
I would dismiss that under reference to the note that increasing the volume of your voice does not increase the range of your R: Voice spells (ArM5, p. 112).
But it's not as clean cut as I would certainly make it sound like, I suppose.
Still wouldn't buy it though.
From a game balance standpoint I'd dismiss it because it makes the game less fun. I feel however I'd be choosing/creating a good in-setting reason to disallow it rather than having an existing setting or rules reason that compels one to disallow it without having to create a justification. The exploitation of weird little corner cases that aren't clearly against the rules is the essence of munchkinism.
I don't disagree with you but I also don't feel that posting the idea was in error.
