General Table Talk

What's an Ice Bear, anyway?

Scott

The bear that sells those frozen slushie drinks at K-Mart :smiley:

From the series, His Dark Materials, by Philip Pullman. Inhabitants of the farthest north, they rule the islands off Russia in an alternate timeline. They are huge, fearsome, and incredible smiths who wear highly personalised armour in combat. Iorek the Ice Bear is a major character in the trilogy. The first book, published as "The Northern Lights" in the U.K. and as "The Golden Compass" (a film by that name came out a few years back; the adaptation is tolerable, though it has some shortcomings) in the U.S. is the best of the three.

What rules are we using for Certamen? There are two issues that come up that aren't addressed in the book--I know the first has been addressed on the Ars Magica board, though.

First off, how do the opponents choose which Arts will be used for attack or defense each round? Face-to-face, it would probably be simultaneous, but that's hard to do online, unless the two players involved both PM a third party with them (and that will slow down what's already going to be a long process). Maybe the person who loses initiative should specify his/her choice first each round?

Second, there are at least a couple of things that a magus can optionally add to a die roll (vis and Confidence are the only ones I can think of). At what point is this choice made? I would guess it's right before the roll in question, and normally would be simultaneous, but in this case doing it in reverse initiative order would probably work best. The choice could also, though, be made at the same time the Arts are chosen (which is quick)--but if you use reverse initiative order, that would give a huge advantage to the person with initiative, who will always know his/her opponent's Arts before making the choice, while the opponent has to guess (and against someone who's much higher on one Art than another, that's a very important factor, since a few pawns of vis when you opponent has a Defense Total of 10 + stress die is a lot more effective than the same amount against 0 + stress die).

If the choice of a modifier is made right before the die roll, is the choice of Art revealed to the opponent first? If the choice to add a modifier is made right before the roll, then it should only be made after the Arts are revealed--otherwise (assuming that vis in particular is more likely to be used on attack than on defense), the person who loses initiative has an advantage because, having seen what Art the opponent used in on attack, he knows what to expect on defense.

Scott

Something else worth noting. Marko, given your previous statements concerning Older Editions and drawing on their 'fluff', while using the new mechanics, how do we determine Arts used in Certamen? I ask, because in previous editions it was as simple as, Challenger picks Technique, Defender gets the Form. The whole veto bit is purely a 5th Ed ( and Tremere thing, as noted by Octavian during his match with Arawn ).

Since this falls under the realm of 'fluff' and general Order of Hermes practices rather than being hard mechanics I figured I'd get it clarified.

The first time Certamen was used in the saga, we were using vetoes:

Scott

Ah, good to know. Titus isnt the type to use a veto, it's too much of 'That Tremere intrigue crap' for his liking.

Viola has 10 XP's in Intrigue, I'm afraid. :slight_smile:

Scott

Oh noes a 1! :wink:

Rolled on the table listed in HoH:TL for knowledge and got squat. It's the whole favorite forms etc thing. Who knows, Viola might have better luck?

Luck doesn't really enter into it. Titus is a Flambeau, which means that vetoing Creo or Perdo is a no-brainer. I suppose in theory Titus might get tricky and pick Creo first, but he'd have to be suicidally reckless to try that, since it would backfire big-time as long as his opponent knew even enough to know that he's of the line of Apromor. Helpfully, he's get a reputation of 5 (granted, it's house Acclaim, but it's still big), and on top of that, both he and Viola were trained in Stonehenge Tribunal at about the same time, meaning they've very likely met, and even if not, Viola would at the very least probably be acquainted with his parens, who would also be of the line of Apromor. Mind you, the Tribunal thing goes both ways, but I don't think additional knowledge is going to help Titus a lot.

As for form, for Viola, picking Herbam is a no-brainer, because no one studies Herbam--and that goes double for combat specialists. Indeed, back in the ArM4 rules, when Certamen was a skill, Herbam was her specialization in it. Oh, yeah, and she has six pawns of easily replaceable Herbam vis just lying around. Second choice would be a toss-up between Animal (her best Form) and Imaginem, but on the list of Forms people never study, Imaginem is in the top three (with Herbam and Aquam), and that, again, goes double for combat specialists, because there aren't a lot of good Imaginem combat spells (the ones that do exist are defensive, and defeated relatively easily by Second Sight), and there are even fewer good PeIm spells, while on the other side of the ledger, Titus has a familiar, meaning he's probably studied enough Animal to invest effects in the familiar bond, whether or not he used Animal in binding. Plus, she has like eight pawns of Imaginem vis lying around, vs. (after I revise her advancement due to the fact that under the new rules she doesn't have to enchant the familiar bond to get a shapechange effect), four of Animal.

And no, weirdly enough, her Characteristics weren't actually min-maxed for Certamen, as she was created under ArM4, but man, I couldn't have done a much better job if they had been.

Scott

Oh, I forgot to add: given his Personality Trait (Proud +2), I expect everyone between here and Paris already knows that Titus is of the line of Apromor.

Scott

First off, while Titus was born in England, since his Parens was a hunter of Magical Creatures ( Eustace of Flambeau from ToME ), he spent most of his apprenticeship with his Pater traveling. So odds are Viola and Titus have never met ( I'm not even sure what Tribunal Eustace is a member of ). Which leads into, have Viola and Titus ever interacted until now? No. So she would have no idea about what school of combat he follows, especially since they've never fought in combat together.

House Acclaim is just that, House Flambeau Acclaim. Are you a member of House Flambeau? No? Then you don't know about his reputation, period. Besides, his reputation is for 'Hunting Hedge Wizards / Creatures' where in that does his favored arts appear?

As for the 'Proud' bit, that doesn't mean he runs around announcing he's an Apromorian. Hypothetically let's say it does. Then it would mean that Viola's +3 Honorable would probably prevent her from using her Veto on an Opponents' Art choice when he states that he won't use his on hers.

Am I saying she can't Veto his first choice? Heck no! However she should expect a tongue lashing about being a coward / her lack of honor. Course Titus might suggest Intellego first, so ya never know.

As for the Vis, does Viola have a Vis source or something?

Circumventing an opponent's attempt to gain advantage is not dishonourable. Honour != Stupid.

In any case Titus has shown a "kill 'em all" attitude, has a familiar that skulks in shadows, refers to himself as a hunter, and referred to his mastery or Vim (not Ignem)-- he's quite obviously a Perdo monkey. It's true that the circumstances could all be a ruse to hide his abilities but Titus is about as subtle as a jackhammer.

Yes--it's not on her sheet as a Virtue because she didn't start with it, but acquired it in a later adventure, in um...1205 or thereabouts.

Scott

Vetoing of Arts was in ArM4 as well, and I think ArM3 and earlier.
Traditionally, the challenger chooses Technique and Defender the form. But whatever way they work it out is legit. But sorry Scott, it has to be done in game and in character.

However, the two of you do not have a justifiable issue for Certamen. Viola cannot require Titus to disarm, as his bow is his Talisman and his arrows are other enchanted items, and thus you would be setting a requirement that deprive him of his magic.
Titus, you may feel Viola insulted you, but she does outrank you. Bide your time, tow the line, and maintain the tradition of discipline (or rather, the tradition of desiring we had more discipline :laughing: )

Excuse me, but when did I suggest I would not do that? I was merely telling him how I'd do it, using my actual character. I was discussing how the strategy of choosing Arts would work. Given the problem of open character sheets, it's better to do it now, to establish what's reasonable in-character, than get into an argument in the middle of a scene in-game. I was, in any case, merely responding to Joo's assertion that Viola would have to roll a die against his reputation in order to make an intelligent choice--because if I hadn't, and Certamen had actually occurred, I'm sure it would have been an issue of dispute, as you can see, obviously, from the fact that we disagreed about how it should play out.

Please stop accusing me of things I didn't do. It's just not fun.

And incidentally, Flambeau House Acclaim is a Hermetic reputation. Check pg. 31 of Societates.

Scott

I think Marko meant that the decision on the Arts had to be made IC, instead of hashing it out OOC with the other player. That's all.

Guys, I need a break. I am burned out on all the fighting and feuding, and my workload is starting to pick up. I am not ending the game, though if you all wander away I understand. I just need rest. I am putting things on Hiatus until Christmas, at which time my intention is to return and retool this thing and see if I can make it work again. It has been fun, and it will be fun again. Some times it has not been so much fun, but you gotta take the good with the bad and see what you can learn from it.
I will be back in 2011. You have my word.

Mate, RL > all. Nuff said. Hope everything works out and I'll be here, trolling the forums when ya get back :wink:

That's cool, man.