I agree. My point was that the faulty communication wasn't just on Mark's part here, and as his friend, I have to say it's poor form for you to put the blame for this particular miscommunication all on him.
Don't take this as me saying 'Zomg this is all Marko's fault, he sux!1one'! I like to think of him as a friend too ( G-d only know's he's has to listen to enough of my Kvetching! ) and he's a good SG. I enjoy playing with him here in Andorra and look forward to getting back to play here ( But oh no, somebody has work... SLACKER! ). But, blame lies with Marko, granted not solely as it was my fault as well. But like I said, this isn't an isolated case, which seems to indicate that there is a larger problem here, no?
However, instead of playing the 'Blame Game' how bout we move on and try to find constructive ways to improve communication between SG and Players? I honestly think Marko has a great vision of the Saga, but sometimes has trouble communicating that to the rest of us. Take this Archmage bit for example, a lot of you older players are used to operating with a different set of rules / flavor of things. Then you get someone like me who has only known 5th Ed who assumes that everything in 5th Ed is how it works... See the problem here? So I figure its something that we can all work at and get settled, which should make for a more enjoyable ( and hopefully less drama filled! ) saga for all involved.
No we have not. From the very onset of this saga I declared I am using older sourcebooks for my history & culture material; Iberia, parts of WGRE, ArM2 Covenants, Houses of Hermes, and etceteras.
Actually, with Flambeau I have been trying to integrate the old and new. No one has yet played a Criamon or Bjornaer. I would do the same with them. No new HR, just the simple standard statement; âI am drawing from Older Editions for Culture & Historyâ.
Not different at all, and clever tricks of rhetoric will not sway me.
The only difference is that this issue involves your buddy. You want to stick by him, Fraternal Fidelity. I can respect that.
But really, this has nothing to do with your character so I fail to see how you can justify being so passionate about it.
You are reading into what you perceive my opinions are and conflating it with this argument. Please stop doing that, because you are almost always wrong. Specifically, in this case you are totally way off base. I have nothing against specialized, highly-specialized, or even uber-specialized characters. I am all fine with that. My issue is when people gimp themselves in critical areas, and then whine when they run into their natural limitations.
Donât even pretend for a second that you were ignorant of the apprentice requirement. And Titus is not at all qualified to challenge. No matter how much you say he is, no matter what argument you use or source you cite or rhetorical device you emply; my decision is firm and unwavering.
I mean, you can debate and chatter away all you want. Freedom of Speech is sacrosanct. But I will eventually grow bored of it and stop bothering to read this thread for a while.
There you go, being totally wrong again. Just stop jumping to conclusions.
Antonio himself is highly specialized. Specialization is great. I have no bias against being over-specialized either. I myself simply think it is foolish, and when a min-maxed character bumps into the limitations they created for themselves and starts whining, it gets annoying.
Your character for example. Two Art scores of 20. Thatâs really nice. But you could have made one of those 20âs a 19, and taken a Magic Theory of 4. Same range of spell levels, not as severely gimped. Even 4 is a very low score for a magus your age, it should be around 5 or 6 or even higher. But after much discussion, I have concluded you are willing to live with your limitations. So be it. Joo seems to be chafing against the limitations he set himself up for, and that is where over-specialization gets to be annoying.
Not a House Rule. I took it straight from the book.
Oh, agreed. But this is not one of those cases.
Thatâs cool. But I remind you that it isnât my rule, it comes from the WGRE, which I still use for reference for the setting. And you all knew that.
I also told him in private âNo, you need an apprentice firstâ, but he decided to take it to the Table Talk thread anyway.
I also thought he meant this to be a long term future goal, not something to occur anytime soon. I am quite frankly perplexed and amazed that Joo imagines Titus is anywhere near ready.
Non-sequiter. One has nothing to do with the other. You could have a score of 20 in every Art, but if you have never trained an apprentice your challenge will still be refused.
And again, you are projecting a false opinion upon me. I really donât like that. Please stop doing it. I do have an opinion that I think it is foolish to gimp yourself in critical areas. I donât care about how high your highest scores are. Not at all. More power to ya. It is the low scores that I am pointing out.
That is not an opinion, it is a fact. Those are poor Arts. They just are. No two ways about it. Those two 20âs, if they were 19âs he could have a score of 4 in four of those zero Arts. Or, better yet, just wait a few years and bring the low Arts up to par. I have not plaid close scrutiny to what Titus did with the down time, but I am guessing he spent it improving what he was already good at instead of filling in his holes.
Okay, now you are starting to boggle my mind. How in the world can you even imagine this is true. I donât know if I should feel offended or just stunned. I never put arbitrary âspeed bumpsâ on anyone. The apprentice requirement has always been there. I am sure you knew about it already. How come you didnât warn Joo? Me, I honestly thought he was speaking of a long term goal, and I honestly thought he already knew about the apprentice requirement.
Let me put it like this. Joo has already found a loophole. If he were to take an existing apprentice as his own (his former master dies mysteriously or some such 
), Titus would simply have to administer a gauntlet, no change in Ats needed, and then he would qualify.
This is coming from the guy who was surprised when he found out that he could not open the Arts for the Gifted girl he found, and was shocked when another Tytalus stole his apprentice.
And it wasnât âimposed 'as' things were happeningâ. The requirement has always been there, since Third edition I believe. And your accusation that I had some ulterior motive is indeed sort of insulting. You are forgiven, just donât let it happen again (though I am sure I shall encounter it again as I wade through this post).
Bingo! There it is again.
Let me make this perfectly clearâŚ
I Do Not Hate Specialists.
I actually like specialists.
What I donât like is when people gimp themselves in an area to get that extra few points, and then cry when they canât do something they gimped themselves in. The way this game is designed, there is a positive for every negative. Go ahead and enjoy the benefits of your strengths. Just donât act surprised an offended when you run up against your weaknesses.
I use Doisettep. It has been mentioned several times thus far. I use Mistridge, Grimgroth, Tremere Vampires, the whole shebang. When it comes to conflicts between ArM4 & ArM5, as for rules I side with ArM5, for the setting and history and such, I rule in favor of ArM4. I have little knowledge of ArM3, so there maybe not so much.
HmmmâŚ
Maybe I am misunderstood.
I have NO bias against any sort of character. I do think over specialization is foolish, but I allow people to be foolish if they so desire.
Itâs like this. If you Min/Max, which is just fine by me, you simply have to realized that you gimped yourself somewhere, and you have to learn to live with the limitations you have imposed upon yourself. If you can do that, then I am fine with you being however highly specialized as you want to be.
being all sly with wording shall win you no points with me.
PCâs too. If you challenge a PC Archmagus, I will simply flat out refuse to allow him to accept your challenge. If he does, he will be laughed out of the lodge of Archmagi and none of them would recognize you anyway.
And, most important, you had indicated to me that this was a long-term goal. I thought you knew about the apprentice requirement, and in any case it would have come up as we discussed your plans further. I had foolishly imagined you would gather intelligence on your intended target to be challenged first.
Continuity is indeed important. And as I have said before, this saga is the continuation of an ArM4 saga. The original Antonio was a player character. My buddy Carmelo. He is Puerto Rican, I work in kitchens with lots of Mexicans (thus my ability to speak âEspanol de la Cosinaâ, or âKitchen Spanishâ); Iberia was one of my first sourcebooks for the game (even though I started with ArM4 for rules). Thus, it was natural for us to decide to play a Spanish themed saga. Carmelo went through all the rigmarole. He invented spells of 7th magnitude and higher (and back then they had to be invented, not learned from grimoires, as back then there was a difference between learning and inventing spells that no longer exists), he did great things for the Order, he trained an apprentice (Carmen), he studied his opponent (Fuego), and when the time was right, he challenged Fuego and we played out his contest as an adventure. No hand waving. Antonio is not an NPC Archmagus. He is an actual real PC Archmagus that has become an NPC.
Gotta be consistent. If he did it that way, the rest of you also have to do it that way.
Which is why I say that it isnât a HR. I was using the discretion that the RAW in RoP: Magic specifically grants the storyguide.
It is a free virtue with no mechanical effect.
(too late :lol )
Now that I know that, I am even more shocked and amazed. This is a perfect example of my issue with over-specialization. I am not at all concerned with how high your high scores are, nor do I have any bias against specialists. It is silly stuff like this that bothers me.
Joo, how is it even possible that Titus would have no OoH Lore twenty years out of gauntlet? With no Order of Hermes Lore, I doubt Titus would even know that the Archmagi even exist. Indeed, he should be ignorant of the names of the other Houses and the entire structure of the Order. That is just a boner. Go back and fix that.
In the classic caustic style of Octavian, he pretty hits the nail on the head.
Joo, you threw me a surprise curveball, and you knew you were surprising me. And I will say again, I thought you were thinking of this as a long-term goal, and I honestly thought you knew about the apprentice requirement.
That is not his area of specialty, and you would look just as foolish trying to engage in the activities he is specialized in.
Okay, knock it off. Octavian happens to be right, poignant and concise and to the point. I am sure it stings, and he is caustic (and always has been). But this reaction of yours is uncalled for.
Octavian is not the whiner. That was LadyP. He is not the complainer. That was Fixer. Most of all, he is not disruptive in this circumstance. He is 100% accurate and to the point. The way he said it may have been harsh, and is not my preferred style. But truth is truth.
Time flies. I donât recall it bbeing such a long time ago. I thought it was only a few weeks. And as I said, I had thought you were indicating a long-term goal, and you did indeed know you were throwing me a curve with your timing.
Actually, you are the one being snarky. Octavian was just being harsh with his accuracy.
By telling another player to shut up, not only are you being disrespectful to him, you are making yourself an enemy of free speech. I could just as easily say âNo more discussionâ and delete every single post that follows. But free speech is sacrosanct.
Joo, you are being childish. Knock it off. You have been warned.
Nope. You have no score in Order of Hermes Lore. IC, Titus wouldnât know anything about the Archmagi. It is a stretch to imagine he even knows they exist.
Titus was ignorant of the facts, he made a blunder, he learns from his mistakes. Take some OoH Lore xp, and move on with life.
Actually no. I have done it before. It came up during the last Drake Hunt. The ruling had nothing to do with Titus specifically or the situation he was in, so just clear that notion from your head. In fact, it isnât even a ruling. It is simply me using what the RAW in RoP: Magic specifically states the SG can do.
What you need to do is gain some OoH Lore so that you can reasonably know Archmagi exist in the first place. This is just silly. Why in the world didnât you take OoH Lore?
Okay, how is this for a hard & fast rule.
âFor Rules & Mechanics, this saga will be using ArM5 (and some of ArM4). For Culture & History, everything from previous cannon still counts as cannon. If new cannon contradicts old, go with the presumption that I am using the old versionâ
I am actually thinking it was a few weeks ago. Early or mid August. Maybe July*. But as I said, I had believed he was discussing a long-term goal. Then no discussion on the subject whatsoever until this fiasco now.
He never gave me a chance. He threw me a curve and knew he was throwing a curve. His challenge came without warning, and actually I first learned of it when Joo sent me a PM and said âOh, surprise, I did thisâ. I responded PM âyou donât qualifyâ, and it turned into all this anyway.
Well, IMO, your opinion is incorrect
False argument. It has always been a known fact that I rely upon the old school version. Indeed, I am almost positive you must have known about the apprentice requirement. I thought Joo also knew. But you would have known he didnât know.You should have warned him. You let your buddy get blindsided.
False argument. I have done this before, during the Drake Hunt and even in Val Negra I do believe.
What magic resistance change?
Why did you tell him that? That makes no sense at all. I could go around setting the robes of magi on fire with Ignem then. The spell wouldnât affect them, but it can affect their clothing and the resulting fire could then kill them. What sense does that make? Nowhere ever-ever-ever have I seen a game where Parma works the way you are describing it.
I donât remember this ever being discussed. Do you realize what horrible things I could have been doing to you guys all along if things worked this way? And your accusation of âconvenient timingâ is yet again insulting. Please stop pretending you can read my mind, because you are pretty much always wrong.
I will admit that I sometimes forget what I originally said, but whenever someone points it out to me I always rule with what I originally did say.
Another False and Nonsequiter argument. You are drawing false conclusions, seemingly purposefully, as a rhetorical device to try and strengthen your argument.
See? It isnât just me. Someone else also doesnât remember this being discussed, and yet draws the same natural conclusion that I do. Indeed, the same conclusion everyone I have ever played this game with has also made.
There was no such agreement, and I would never ever waive the apprentice requirement. If, theoretically, there is an Archmagus who would accept such a challenge, then the other Archmagi will have laughed him out of their club and taken aay his membership card, and further would not accept the claims of his challenger.
No
No there isnât
No they wont
No, no, and no. I will not budge, no matter the cost. To dilute my vision of the game, to be held hostage by players who demand this-or-that and overrule every decision I make, that isnât a game I want to play.
They can and will, and it matters not because NO Archmagus will accept a challenger that has not trained an apprentice.
Jesus! Do you want me to HR every bit of RAW? That is the way Magic Resistance works by-the-book.
I did not know you didnât know. You seem well versed enough in the game that I had thought you had been playing since ArM4 or earlier. I have an extra copy of the WGRE. Iâll mail it to ya if you want 
. Seriously, I get requests from people wanting to join, and when they say their only experience is with ArM5 I tell them this isnât the game for them.
So, if a cannibal wants to kill me and eat me, I should compromise by just letting him cut off my leg? The Policy of Appeasement in WWII didnât work.
As I am shocked by how inaccurate some people are concerning the things they presume I think (such as Vortigern), I agree that perhaps I should work on communicating a bit better. But honestly, you are the only one (as far as I can recall) that I have ever had this problem with. So maybe it is just you.
You provoked it Joo. Everyone knows Octavian can be harsh. You are much better off with his short scathing replies. It is simply unwise to poke the wasps nest with a stick, even a long stick. And I congratulate Octavian for showing some balls and deflecting a personal attack with grace
See, the fact of the matter is Octavian is painfully accurate in his statements. I would not phrase things in his scathing manner, but I cannot claim to disagree with it at all.
I think the flaw is in my advancement house-rules, and I have been considering revising them. They way they are now, people tend to look and say âlook what I can do!â, and they blow their wad on one or two cool tricks. They wind up looking like old-apprentices, as if they just came out of their gauntlet.
I am not at all concerned abot how powerful the character is and what they can do. What concerns me is what they canât do. Fer cryinâout loud! I grant players a 33% increase in xp above standard RAW, and I wind up with twenty year magi with scores of 3 in Magic Theory and Parma Magica, and no Order of Hermes Lore.
Exactly-exactly-and-precisely-correct!
I had believed this to be a long-term goal so I stuck it on the back-burner. And in my wildest imagination, I would not have thought Joo believes Titus is ready to be an Archmage. I mean seriously, these are the Archmagi, the secret society that secretly controls the Order (in secret!). These are supposed to be the best-of-the-best. The top ten-percent. This is not a club for young twenty-year magi. These are the elder masters. If Titus is ready to be an Archmagus, what does that say about the others? A new magus fresh from gauntlet can beat Titus in Certamen without batting an eye. An Archmagus is supposed to be etter than a young magus in everything, and then specialized in their field on top of that.
Such accurate truth and wisdom from one of my players has restored my faith in this saga. Honestly, in the past few months, I have come close to just packing it up and retiring this saga more than a few times. Why? Because of these pointless silly arguments. But Spartans never retreat. Spartans never surrender. I will keep going as long as humanly possible. I will deal with the arguments, I will deal with people quitting in a tantrum. I will recruit new players as I need to, and do whatever I can to retain the players I have come to respect as high-quality gamers. And I pretty much think most of you are high quality. There are some who have quit that I have put forth no effort to retain. But for some of you current players (you know who you are, you cantankerous bastards ), I have spent many-many hours and much energy working with you and compromising where I can.
So, my decision is still set in stone. Yea, verily, it is etched in steel, emblazoned in the heavens. No Archmagus at all will ever accept a challenge from a magus who has not gauntleted an apprentice. I will not budge, I will not break. Spartans never retreat, Spartans never surrender. Yeah, I know, I harp about my Spartan heritage a lot. But with a life as harsh as mine, it is the only thing that keeps me going.
Anyway, free-speech is sacrosanct. I will not prohibit you guys from discussing and debating this all you want. I still will not change my mind, and I may even skip reading this thread for a while.
You are taking an argument against one extreme and claiming it is an argument for the other extreme. Your logic is faulty.
Well, you are out of luck because I really like them. And you are too specialized to survive many Wizard Wars. As I said, I am not worried abbout your high scores and what you can do, I am bothered by what you can't do.
I have built many Flambeau combat specialists that are not as nearly limited as Titus. Roerto of Flameau, only five years out of gauntlet, could whip Titus six ways to Sunday in Certamen, WW, and general adventuring. On Sunday, Titus would win though.
I am not saying Titus is a bad character. What I am saying is that you purposefully designed Titus with limitations and you gimped yourself. You need to learn to live with that.
Again, to me the concern is not about what you can do, it is about what you cannot do. No score in Order of Hermes Lore? Seriously? Really, go back and fix that. Flip something around and recalculate scores.
Because you are playing in my saga. I use ToH: Iberia from ArM3, I use Covenants from ArM2, I use the WGRE from ArM4. I thought you had experience with ArM4, and I suppose I was wrong. I have an extra WGRE that I will gladly mail to you. Free. You just gotta reimburse me for postage.
Actually, I count 15. Deficient Technique x3 equals nine flaw points, Deficient Form x6 is six points. If you were to damage someones gift so severely this way, it would be considered a Hermetic crime.
And I am hereby correcting you. Flambeau magi take apprentices with the same average frequency and timing of other magi. Some wait until later life, some start right away. It can be useful to have a skilled filius standing at your side in battle.
I really do find it hard to believe you didn't already know. And I know you know I rely on old material for Hermetic history and such. Your argument simply falls flat on its face.
She is, and I completly agree.
She is, and I agree.
Dude, it is right there in plain English. You have to do some increadible contortions to try and deny it.
Dude, it says "I will", not "Maybe if I feel like it".
???
Totally OOP
No, it is 100% accurate.
Dude, you need thicker skin. Octavian is 100% on the mark with his statement. Harsh, but accurate. I know you are man enough to handle a little ball-breaking.
Actually, you can be pretty harsh too. But we are all men here (well, except for Sally, I shall grant her an honorary promotion to the status of man (and yes, I know, I am just busting your balls too 
)). So, as men, we should be able to handle a few caustic remarks here and there.
Yeah, except you occasionally fail in that regard as well.
No. I came close to the edge on booting you a few times, but I didn't. Why? Because you are worth more than you cost. And you cost me two players, so that says a lot.
No you cant. I have pages and pages of PM's from you that demonstrate the opposite.
Look at yourself buddy. You are just as guilty.
Y'know, that is the way I feel about this entire discussion. Why do I bother? Am I addicted to arguments and debates? Maybe so.
And I by yours. This has nothing to do with your character. Why do you even care?
Actually, Octavian's character is rather well designed. I get annoyed at his claims of weakness, especially since he turns down every advantage I offer him.
Dude, he wasn't even adressing you. How in the world is it rational for you to equate a one-line (and accurate) comment aimed at Joo as an attack on yourself personally?
And you built a character that is 20 more years away from taking an apprentice, who cant even encghant an item, and is stuck in his mystery path ecause his Magic Theory is only 3 after twenty years. Everyone has weaknesses, yes. Octavian has his, you have yours, Joo has his. You need to learn to live with them or overcome them.
Virt, I have thirty volumes of PM's from you demonstrating how difficult the Ludo character has been to deal with. I wanted you to create a Tytalus from Societates. You wanted something different.
I.., no. Nevermind.
I feel the same about Ludo. He is tainted with evil magic, he is a damned soul. But every time I even hint at this you scream "discrimination". You, Vortigern, are the one who is the most guilty of complaining about the results of your design choices.
Yes he did. I have said many times that Octavian is one of the best character designs in this saga.
You are confusing him with LadyP, who purposefully gimped herself and kept crying about it.
Yeah, except he wasn't talking to you or commenting on anything you said.
Free WGRE, a gift from you to me. Just PM me a mailing adress.
And forgive me if I said anything mean or got pissed off in my (hours) of writing comments. I know I am a dick, and I have accepted the fact that I am a rat bastard.
But I am still right
#1. Mark essentially spelled out most of the points in far greater detail than I was motivated to do and felt was necessary hence the brevity of my response.
#2. Voltigern: I have already been working towards improving Octavian's scores that need to be. I haven't been in a big rush to complete the character's timeskip progression mostly because he's not directly involved in the current threads or adventures. Thanks for the concern.
#3. I suppose I have to say something mean now to keep my rep so... [insert your most despicable "yo momma" joke here].
It is right there in the Code, but the rulebook also says that this particular provision of the Code isn't really enforced. That being said, it seems clear (to me, at least) that magi who don't train apprentices are looked down upon as weird freaks, much the same way as mundanes in medieval society who don't have children (though of course, a mundane with a religious calling can do otherwise).
Scott
To be honest, I'm not all that manly myself. And I do play a girl.
Scott
Tch Marko, you should know me better than that! Besides your previous posts were TL;DR! 
But yes mate, you know me, stubborn as an ass! Takes a good kicking once or twice ( or three or four hundred times! ) before I'll admit I'm wrong or what have you. Anyway, like I said, there are no hard feelings and my apologies for making ya deal with this. Same goes to the rest of the players in the Saga, I apologize for taking up everyone's time and distracting us from doing what we all come here to do, which is to play a great game and have fun.
So... Back to the game? :mrgreen:
Indeed. There's essentially three reasons to not have an apprentice:
-
The magi is not qualified to serve as a master.
-
The magi has not found a gifted individual to serve as an apprentice.
-
The magi's duties or activities make it so they are unable to devote the time or put the apprentice at too much risk.
Reason 1 is fine for junior magi, or those with debilitating weaknesses or incompatibilities that preclude them from being good teachers. For example, hedge wizards that joined the order but were deemed too old to be introduced to the hermetic arts. However, being a magi of a certain age, this can easily be perceived as an admission of weakness to fellow magi that some unscrupulous rivals might capitalize on.
Reason 2 is somewhat acceptable considering the rarity of the gift. However, there are other options such as how Marie "stole" ludovico's would be apprentice because he fell into the first category. Hell, an archmage worthy candidate could just as easily TAKE someone else's apprentice through various means like wizard war, certamen, an exchange of favours or threats/intimidation of lesser magi. However, this could probably fly only for so long before other magi begin making remarks or worse on why the 130 year old magi has yet to take an apprentice.
The third option falls to those such as quaesitores who have duties to the Order that involve them either mentoring other gauntleted magi to be quaesitores or someone like a seeker that has devoted his time to adventuring for the development of magic for the Order as a whole. Even so, the highest proportion of seekers are bonisagi and can relieve any magi of an apprentice as per the Code. And like Mark mentioned, even combat magi could use a comrade at arms. However, one has to be mindful that the magus is responsible for the well-being of the apprentice. Being unable to do so is an admission or demonstration of weakness.
I would feel a lot more comfortable extending my Parma to an apprentice with Titus's 10 than with Viola's 3.
Scott
BTW, I would think the level 35 spell requirement refers to an original spell, but I could be wrong. Even that isn't all that impressive now that inventing/learning spells is a normal lab activity, thereby benefiting from all sorts of bonuses.
Scott
The original requirement was to "invent" a 7th magnitude spell as opposed to learning one. However, in ArM5 they are now all original inventions unless you were taught the spell by another.
I am bone weary with debating with people who ignore what I actually say and instead seem to be engaged with some phantom in my place who seems to be having a totally different discussion/argument.
It is quite taxing to have to repetitively remind someone what your position actually is, and why you are actually upset, with them constantly returning circularly back to an origin point that is only minimally related.
I'm going to walk away from this one, not because I believe I am 'wrong' or 'defeated' or some such, yet because I don't feel like restating once again how my actual point isn't what people seem to be taking it to be. Two or three times should have been enough, and if not... one more I don't think will make a difference.
--
I am also preparing for a one year deployment soonish, so my posting will be slow/sporadic until I get settled in where I am going ( where I 'should' have internet and access to resume. ).
Indeed. Let us put all this behind us, and chalk it up to the Tytalus motto that "Through Conflict there is Growth".
My prayers go with you, and I have much respect and honor for the sacrifices you and other servicemen make for our great nation.
Where are they sending you?
I just had a flash of imagination; Ludovicio sent to Afghanistan and scouring the Afghan & Paki hills and mountains with a thousand summoned genies and ghosts and more diabolic spirits. Osama dancing on the end of Ludo's rope
Sorry this is sort of off-topic, but I figure if anyone has super search-fu it's y'all: can anyone point me to any discussions (either archived berklist or an old thread here on the forums) covering how to determine which types of effects are and aren't affected by MR / Parma?