I know Tolkien used them in his version of Kirkwood, from the Hobbit.
But was there a European folklore/mythology basis for giant spiders?
Not really.
While there is quite a bit of folklore and myths about spiders, all(?) of it is about normal-sized spiders.
Giant spiders are almost exclusively found in fantasy and horror fiction, where Tolkien's are probably the most famous though not the earliest.
Tolkien was bitten by a large spider when he was, IIRC, 3. At that age it must have looked relatively huge, and he clearly hated them ever after. His giant spiders came from his personal mythology, not from his studies.
4 Likes
He has giant spiders?
(I'm Australian)
2 Likes
I am Australian also, and have seen my share of spiders eating skinks and geckos.
I am more worried about the venom, rather than the size of the spiders.
I am asking about the sort of spider that catches monitors and racehorse goannas.
I will have to ignore Australian goodness, unless you can explain how some other Australian native, like a kangaroo or very similar can be in ME.
By similar, perhaps a chimerical hybrid of rabbit and otter.
1 Like
There's evidence of a sulphur-crested cockatoo in the court of Frederick II
The cockies do fly, and there is sea trade in the northern Indian. So more probable than kangaroos.
"Have you heard the legends of the giant Vorpal Mouse."
Aussie sees the Vorpal Mouse.
{Australian accent} "That's not a vorpal mouse ya drongoes, it's a Kangaroo. {/accent}
2 Likes
That is to say, no one who encountered a ME giant spider ever lived to tell the tale.
3 Likes
Well, in 'Mythic Europe' some giant spiders do show up in TTT.
As others have noted though, Shelob is supposedly a reference to the young Tolkien being attacked by a 'Rain Spider' while playing in South Africa. IIRC, however, Tolkien always claimed to not even remember the incident.
Michael Tolkien, however, was intensely arachnophobic and it's been suggested that might have been the bigger catalyst for the giant spiders in Middle Earth.
Oh and on a final note, I'm not aware of spiders specifically, but 'giant animal' was a pretty common agent of divine judgement in various mythologies...
Arab traders. Well, seeing as there are Byzantine artefacts found in Sri Lanka and Thailand, and Indonesian artefacts found in a Byzantine Red sea port, then it is possible for Indonesian items to make it to the fringes of Mythic Europe. I'm sure I've read about ancient coins being found in Australia, and people debating if it's from a shipwrecked trader or if they were planted by hoaxers. So theoretically just about possible.
Alternatively, they made it out of the world of dreams and into our world.
In The Hobbit, big enough to cocoon a dwarf. So, maybe the size of a Shetland pony?
Shelob, a spiderlike monster, is big enough to terrify orcs.
Ungoliant is a spidery cosmic horror, but I suspect spiders are like her rather than the other way around.
There is also one in Hooks
Spoiler
Old Nanny, size +4 spider iirc, though i cannot check as i am on a train
Tolkien did say that he did not hate spiders, and that he did not even remember being bit by one as a kid.
Giant spiders had shown up in fantasy before Tolkien ever got published.
Lord Dunsany had giant spiders in some of his tales, and we do know Tolkien had read some of Lord Dunsany's writings, even if he wasn't a great fan of them.
The thing is that it can easily be somewhere in the middle- if a person from Europe in the 1700's collected Roman coins and brought their collection to Australia and that collection was found today it would neither be a hoax nor evidence that Romans were in Australia. The same principal applies to any other object that humans may have transported around the world in past centuries.
As to giant spiders, I remember versions of Jack and the Beanstalk that involved giant sized livestock as background scenery, and it would not surprise me at all to find that any other animal had been described as a giant version in the vicinity of giants by some storyteller or another...
I have always imagined that Shelob was capable of attacking the larger monitor lizards of Komodo. Maybe even grown salties.
Am I rating giant spiders based on size of (potential) reptile victims? Well you can encounter dragons in Ars Magica.
When younger I was freaked out by mere Huntsmen. Appearing in my Mum's car while we were driving.
And Goliath Birdeater tarantulas from South America might be able to prey on super-evolved flying dinosaur descendants.
But I am wondering about mythical/folklore big spiders that can physically assault people in ME.All I can really find is Arachne and Phalanx. And a mention of Giant Spiders from the moon in a story by Lucian in the early AD, but that would be beyond the Limit of the Lunar Sphere.
Speaking of Moon Spiders, as well as Lucian's story, there is also the later story of Pan Twadowski (from centuries after ME) who uses a spider to communicate from his exile on the Moon.
Perhaps all Giant Spiders come from the Moon. Tricky bit is getting there.
I don't use Witches of Thessaly in my saga.
In the Greek mythology, there is the story of Athena and Arachne. Arachne was a very skilled weaver, claiming to be better weaver than the goddess.
A challenge was set, and Arachne chooses to depict all the love's affairs of the gods, especially from Zeus. The tapestry was beautiful and flawless. Athena, enraged, tore the tapestry.
Arachne, humiliated, commited suicide. Athena decided to grant her a second chance, turning her into a spider, so she could keep waving for eternity.
There is depiction of the scene in the French wiki
Of course, it is a medieval painting, so proportions are what they are, but one could use that as a base to see a huge spider, with a body larger than the head of a human. Arachne should be immortal (based on the story), and could have many descendants, equally large, or possibly larger ?
2 Likes
Oh, yes, Hlo-hlo is awesome. He collects the halos of godsbhe has hunted indicating that he does not know, or care, what halos really are.