Hiems and Cygna

And he kisses her back, passionately, all thoughts forgotten for a moment, years of repressed thoughts and desire coming to the fore, his arms enclosing her like he would never let her go.

But then, because he is he, he comes to his senses, and releases her, short of breath, the hurt apparent in his voice and eyes
Lady cygna, are you sure? I... I am not... right...

This infuriates him. He has this blind spot regarding cygna, in that he has extreme difficulty to conceive of people not perceiving her like he does. This is so obvious!!!
Then let them think. You shouldn't fear shame for the opinion of morons and fools that judge you without knowing you. These are not worth knowing, nor considering.

This breaks Hiems heart.
The scars on her back, he thinks of the pain she must have felt when these were done, and afterwards.
And to see her like this, so much like him in her restraint...
This is absolutely not sexual, in any way. He justs feels so much pain for her.
He'll take a blanket, and wrap it over her, and hold her gently.
After a moment, he'll say quietly to her ear: This doesn't matter to me. You do. And I am here, and I won't leave you.

Yes :smiley: And the fool would almost smile back and hold her hand, without thinking about it, while the grogs behind would be all "!!!!"

Well, the biggest problem will be with him mostly accepting that, yes, cygna really does want this with him, seriously, that she's not doing this out of pity. And that she isn't deluded by his appearance. And he'll always have doubts :laughing:

So long as they're in bed, he'll hold her, even if it is just a hand, like wanting to make sure that this was real, fearful to lose her.
When she speaks about Her, he'll come down crashing. Panic arising, and cygna will perceive this, the fear, the urge to flee before being hurt again, his body tensing.
He'll hear her out, but won't be able to say anything. He'll just hold her even more, both touched by cygna's gentle words and kindness, yet fearful that she may not realize what he is.

Me too.
Maybe this can happen over time (and this doesn't preclude the lost love flaw either), but not until after a few years :laughing:

Wrote something on the other thread... I keep thinking we might mix it all to have something great :laughing:
Like it happens as as wrote, with the crucial moment being the conversation we've had here, culminating with Cygna kissing hiems and all that ensues.

(putting my responses to both of Fixer's posts here, so apologies if it seems a little choppy.)

Yes. Cygna thought that she would be able to return to Stonehenge, but after Tribunal (even if it was her imaginings), there were too many whispers, too many accusatory glances (Dark Secret being revealed), and the princeps of Gallus Florensis going out of her way to make life hell for her. And, as she thinks on it, she realizes that Phoenix is home, more than Stonehenge is. And she misses it terribly.

This. What happened to Hiems and Cygna (especially Hiems) over there was an abomination, and still leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, even if some of the magics involved are slowly being revealed (although, if it were me, I would have run it past the players involved before pulling a stunt like that, especially since it involved rewriting/ignoring a Flaw).

Agreed. And Cygna would have been quite hostile (but more likely in a catty, sharp-tongued way rather than a cat-fight, rip-her-hair out way).

As time goes by, she would be pushing her way through a little harder.

Cygna is also short of breath, looking flushed and surprised as he lets go of her. [color=red]"I am positive. You are right...you are the right one for me. I've longed for this moment for years." And, despite her words, she still looks more like a shy, awkward schoolgirl than a wanton.

She leans against him, as he holds her, crying with relief that she's finally been able to tell him the truth about her, and that he accepted her anyway. [color=red]"Thank you so much, Hiems," she says into his shoulder.

After this happens a couple of times, where she feels like he thinks it's just pity sex or that she doesn't really feel anything for him, she will sit up in bed. [color=red]"Hiems ex Miscellanea, look at me," she says sternly.

[color=red]"I want you to see something. I am going to cast Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie on myself so you can get that silly notion out of your head once and for all!" She then proceeds to do so. ((Her Casting Total is higher than the Spell Level, even before figuring the Aura, so it should be no problem.))

[color=red]"My name is Liliana Merinita, and I'm a goat," she says, with clouds of frost billowing from her smiling lips. She then looks more serious.

[color=red]"My name is Katerina Cygna filia Gruis doctrinae Bjornaeris. I love you, Hiems ex Miscellanea, with all my heart. I have loved you for years." Her breath is clear as she speaks.

[color=red]"I want you to be the father of my children," she says nervously, [color=red]"and I want to be a part of your life for as long as I live." Again, she speaks the truth.

And when he tenses, as though he were about to flee at the mere thought of Her, Cygna holds him close, stroking his hair, nuzzling him lovingly, and whispers, [color=red]"It's all right, moja ljubov', I'm here. Everything will be okay."

And she is so beautiful in his eyes it almost hurts.
Tentatively, fearing rejection at every turn, Hiems lifts his hand to her cheek, caressing it gently. When she doesn't flee in terror, tentatively, he comes closer, and kisses her.
Fade to black.

Since this is all before, he'll hold her for as long as he needs to, and then a moment longer, enjoying the moment despite knowing he shouldn't. And then, before it becomes a little too long, he'll let go.
But this is the kind of things that is important in their relationship and them becoming physically closer. I like the idea that the trip to Britannia did a lot for this.

Interesting. Lemesee...

Ouch. This strikes him, like lightning, and leaves him stunned for a moment. When he recovers, cygna can see tears flowing down his cheeks, slowly freezing as they go by
This... This is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me... This means a lot to me, too, and I love you so much, and I want it so very much!
Turning his head in shame, not daring to look at her
I am sorry. I trust you, I always have, and I don't need this spell for this. Yet, besides this knowledge... I can't help but fear that, someday, you'll realize, like everyone did before*. Like She did. I know this is stupid, and maybe, as time goes by, this will go away, but I can't help but feel it, and the more I love you, the more I fear. And at times like these, I cling to my trust in you, for I know that, but one can't always master his own feelings. I am sorry for hurting you. This is the last thing I want.

  • I just thought about this... I had the rejection Hiems suffered due to the gift pave the way for what happened with Madame, but it just occured to me that a whole lot of magi must have lived through similar experiences. Being rejected and shunned for your whole infancy, even by your parents, this must leave some scars and I wonder how many magi, order-wide, are more or less emotionally scared and have difficulty with people (which is yet another reason for they to use companions, yeah!). Covenant life (which include covenfolk who know about the Gift and try to follow their head instead of their feelings) and the Parens must be very, very important for this.

He'll say nothing, but cling to her for dear life.

In general, cygna will be surprised to see how, on the one side, he becomes even more fiercely protective of her (and she suspects he would lay down his life for her without a moment's thought if needed), but on the other, now that he's opened up to her, he is even more vulnerable to her. She has filled this barely-patched hole in his soul, and can, at any moment, leave the wound open again, only worsened.
And he'll take care of her as much as possible, talk at lengths (if she wants) about Adorjan and all, while being ever puzzled by the notion that her scars should be more important to people than her.

So, I was thinking about the time frame. Stonehenge's Tribunal was Summer of 1222 (because Stonehenge sucks that way, and are a year behind everyone else because they can't cooperate to save their collective lives). Give her (them) a couple of months to realize/accept that they don't belong in Stonehenge anymore. Winter is bad for travel, so they may strike out for Iberia at the spring thaw, which would get them home at mid- to late Spring 1223. Which means that all this happened just a month or two before the Whatever Happened to Mr. Walid? thread, and they're still trying to sort through their new...everything.

Cygna raises her hand to his cheek, caressing and carefully wiping the tears off; the ones that are frozen, she will try to get to melt first since she doesn't know if pulling ice from his cheek will hurt him.

[color=red]"I am not Her, my love. I know that what she did hurt you so deeply, and she hurts you still. I tell you that you have nothing to fear from me. But if you ever do feel the need to be alone for a while, I understand. Just remember that, so long as I live, you are never truly alone."

((Let's see...she's current 34 in 1223, so she's got five years before she wants to do her LR. She will ask him when he was wanting to do his LR, so they can figure how how much time they have to make babies in :smiley: ))

She will gradually open up more to him about Adorjan, who and what he is, what he did to her and what she did for/with him to get the Diabolic Past, but she is still uncomfortable about it, especially if she considers talking to others about it.

Sounds right.
I love the idea of them being tentative with each other, not used for this after all this time in other roles. Each not believing that this is true, each for their own reason.

It doesn't cling, as she discovers by brushing it.
Hiems will put his hand on her, close his eyes and stay there a moment.

Not daring to look at her in the eyes, Hiems replies
Nor will I. Not unless you ask me to.

The LR...Hiems never thought much about it. It is all about living, after all. So he was gonna take one at the same time as her, as a way to be with her. Now... Now this changes everything. Because whatever he may say, however he may feel, with Cygna, he's got a reason to live (well, he had already before, but it was like a spark compared to a flame), so he'll want the best LR possible.

And Babies??? He fears having babies of his own! What if they're like him? What if they aren't but they fear him? Isn't cygna sure she doesn't want to adopt? Well, if she doesn't, at least, the babies will be hers, so he'll love them with all his heart, try to give them all the love he didn't get. And if they fear him, they'll love her, so that's already something. And if she'd like, he'd want to take some orphans in anyway. I mean, they already exist, so he can at least try to make their life better. He wants cygna to be happy, he wants to have a family to love and care for.

Hiems will be VERY angry at Adorjan, and absolutely unable to realize that cygna was, at some point, a not-so nice person.
You were young, under influence, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn he used Mentem magics on you. You should have seen Nicolas*! What he'd do to the women!
Cygna... You wouldn't have shacken of his influence if you were corrupt, or unable to discern right and wrong. That you did this despite the risk to yourself, despite his schemes and manipulations, should tell you all that you need to know.
And even if you were evil and corrupt? What matters is what you are now. And that is the most... the most beautiful, gentle and compassionate woman I've ever known. Ever. I could not love you as much as I do if you weren't as such.

*The resident Jerbiton of CLair de Lune

((from 1223.1 In My Mother's Footsteps...I'm thinking stuff with Hiems and Cygna's relationship can go here, so as to not clutter other threads unnecessarily.))

That night, Cygna sleeps fitfully, beyond glad to finally be in Hiems's arms, and yet...

The times she wakes up during the night, she has to reassure herself that this is real, that he is really there with her, running her hands over his body and snuggling in closer, blinking back the tears and running over what happened in her mind.

[color=red]"Hiems, love?" she says nervously the next morning as they snuggle in the bed. [color=red]"May I ask you a question?

"Last night...when I said that I am yours, and that I give myself to you freely. Was...was that something that She* had said to you before?"


  • Cygna still can't bring herself to call Madame by her name, or even Madame. She always refers to her as Her or She, but the way she says it, it sounds like a proper name. Sort of like Him.

Hiems shivers, something cygna has come to know to have nothing to do with the temperature, and everything to do with his emotionnal state.
And he takes a moment to speak, words struggling to form in his mind, and then to exit his throat

Not like this... But... Yeah, of course she did.
... ... ...
I am sorry. I know you aren't her. You are wiser, and a lot more compassionate. But knowing and feeling are 2 different things entirely.

And I hurt you, again and again, because I can't... I mean... I... I just can't fathom why you'd... put up with me. And it goes back full circle, you know?
I know we talked about this, already. But everytime I look at you, you're so... So beautiful, so gentle, so just perfect, I don't feel like I... Like I deserve you. You know, eveyone, and Her, too, they couldn't have been wrong, I keep thinking. And the fact that you... that you... that you have feelings for me despite all this only speaks volumes of you.
I... I trust you, enough, I guess, to know that... That you'd... That you would be better than her. That you'd try not to hurt me, despite me hurting you. But yesterday, when I looked at you, I just... I was struck by the thought that I just... don't... deserve... you.

But katerina? I felt something the other day. I had put some wards in my tower, at phoenix. Circular ones. And when I saw you, when you said there words, when I looked at you... I felt them crumble. And, really, whatever you do, I just want you to know that I... that I lo-ve-you.

(When you linked for Him, I just thought you were talking about Him :laughing: )

[color=red]"I'm sorry, moja ljubov'" Cygna whispers. [color=red]"I didn't mean to jab at an old wound like that. If I ever say or do anything that hurts you, or makes you uncomfortable, please tell me. I don't want to ever hurt you, even by chance. Your happiness means more to me than anything. And if my being with you makes you happy, so much the better." Cygna smiles warmly.

[color=red]"You still don't know why I love you, Hiems?" Cygna whispers in his ear as she snuggles closer. [color=red]"I had feelings for you because you are the most beautiful, handsome man I've ever met. I fell in love with you because you treat me better than anyone I've ever known. You treat me like I'm a Lady, like I'm...worthy. Like I'm beautiful, like I'm not too skinny, with no breasts to speak of, and a funny-looking nose. You make me feel better than I've ever felt in my life, and happier than I've ever been."

Cygna practically beams at Hiems's last words, until the rest of what he said registers. Then her face is awash with fear and pain. [color=red]"Your...wards? At your tower?" she says softly, her bottom lip trembling. [color=red]"The ones that help keep you safe? I brought them down?"

((One of my favorite songs of all time. And combines with Finnish metal, just makes it twice as awesome! Thanks for the link.))

It comes out as a plea, right from the heart
Katerina!!! I... He calms himself.
For what it's worth, being with you is the best thing that has happened to me in ages. Seeing you smile? The most beautiful thing I have seen.
I don't want to offend you. I'm screwed up, I know it. And I apologize for it, for the hurt and pain I create for you. Truly, I don't know if I can ever allow me to be happy again. It's stupid, but opening up... It frightens me to no ends. But I want you to know... life is better with you. Sometimes, I can even allow me to feel something. To just be human, if only for a moment. To smile at your words. To look at you, and let my heart open up, and swell enough as if to burst by this simple sight. This may seem stupid and small things, but it is a lot to me, and it is all thanks to you.
You know, I... I would have died for you before, for such was my duty to a lady. I would die for you now, but because you are my lady.

His eyes widen as she comes closer, his desire and anxiety apparent... and tempered at once by his perplexity
But you are a lady! The most ladylike lady I know! You could have been right up there in Camelot! To know that you are fine, and happy? I don't understand it, but it is everything I could hope for.
A timid, but also complice smile
And you are beautiful, cygna. With breast that are just perfect, for they fit perfectly in my hand.
And he puts his arm around her waist, and kisses her

Oh. I've failed again. Silly me.

My wards, my tower, my safety, my life... Whatever. They weren't worth anything before. You did nothing but good, katerina. A soft, swift kiss. Fact is, it just seems my magic is as unable to resist you as I am*. I wouldn't want it any other way.

  • Although this is a little problematic. Being burned is uncommon. Being touched by cygna quite ain't :laughing:

:smiley: PLeasure :smiley:
I'm gonna see Therion sunday, I'll think to you then! :smiley: If you ever have the chance to see them, go! The albums are great, but pale before the shows.

Cygna says nothing. No words can express the joy she feels now at hearing Hiems's words, words she had longed to hear for years but never dared to hope that she would. She simply smiles lovingly at him, sighs contentedly, and moves against him.

Cygna smiles wickedly. [color=red]"They are yours, my love. They serve at your beck and call, and nothing makes them happier than to be held by you."

Afterwards, as Cygna lies against her love and caresses him, she kisses him softly. [color=red]"Moja ljubov', I love you more than anything. It took a long time for to build these walls around you, and it may take a while for them to come down. I treasure every moment that you let me in"

She smiles playfully. [color=red]"And that you spend in me. But if you ever feel...like it's...that we're going too fast, that you need to adjust, to get used to things, I'll understand. Just remember that I love you. I always have, and I always will. And I want to help you get over..." Cygna can't bring herself to finish the sentence, so settles for kissing him tenderly and longly.

Hiems will say nothing, but will timidly pass his arm around her, close his eyes, and stay there, with her.

Her words begin to freeze him, but luckily, she stops just in time, and "distracts him" enough. And he answers in kind, eagerly.

So. A baby? I'll need to read the SR article about pregnancy :smiley:

I had forgotten that I got the new Sub Rosa last night, and hadn't had a chance to check it out until today. What a coincidence. And a ginormous wall of ooc text, here.

Let's see...I think I'll go with the Sparkly Silver Dice, see what happens.

Character Fertility: since I didn't have this chart at any of the character creations, let's roll now. 84: Normally fertile. I can live with that.

Conception: Would Hiems be okay with "Normal Sexual Activity" (a few times a week), or "Sexually active" (one or twice a month)? (I suspect that "Actively Trying to Conceive", 2-3 times a day for a month, might be pushing it for him.)

Let's see...Fast Roll Conception Method, no birth control. Die rolls comes up 9 – success! In the first season, yet. Cygna is soooooo happy.

Birth Type Table: Die roll of 53: Normal type of birth. Although, since they're both magi and Hiems has Strong Sidhe Blood, we should probably roll on the "Magically-Induced Birth Type Table", which would make it twins.

We can work out the names later.
Pregnancy Length and Child Development Table: (Ah, man, they're making me dig out a d6? And 2d4? And a d20? What the froo, man? Ooo, I forgot about my kitty dice! Cool!)

Pregnancy length is (34+1d6) 40 weeks, and she begins showing at (13+1d6) 14 weeks.

Typical Birth Weight (2d4 + 3 – 1) 5+3-1=7 pounds for the first-born and 7+3-1=9 pounds for the second.

Length of Labor is (1d20) 1 hour. Wow. "Ah...ah...ah-choo! Oh, look, it's a baby!" :unamused:

Puberty tbd once I get to the "boy or girl" chart. First boy, the die hits the tray, bounces out, and straight into the trash – that's a sign, right? Anyway, it begins at 14, lasting 1 year. I'm assuming identical twins would have the same puberty, right? (If not, #2's puberty begins at 15 and lasts 1 year.)

Types of Multiple Births for Twins is (die roll of 28) Identical Twins.

Sex of the children is (d20 is 4) male. Two boys.

Eye color chart: On a d%, they roll a 65, "Same as mother's". Black eyes.

Hair color chart: On a d%, they roll a 40, "Same as father". Blue hair. Interesting.

Hiems will be worried sick by the pregnancy, and feel quite guilty of putting cygna's life at risk. He'll insist that it happens at phoenix, where Sebastian is available, and will try to have the best corpus magics cast on her (He can't do it himself, his spells melt at her touch).
He'll be quite relieved when it is done.
Are you okay? Do you feel alright?

The SR article: Read it yesterday, wasn't too happy with them. Wasn't there something more official? I seem to recall a paragraph with appropriate charts depending on whether the Gift is, or not, transmited by birth and all. Something recent.
However, I'm fine with the results :smiley:. 2 twin boys. And yes, heavily magical :laughing:
They are so small... And beautiful. They've got your eyes, you know?
He'll touch them gently, tentatively, the babies recoiling, then crying, before his cold skin. He'll retreat at once.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't think...
Ice cristals forming in his eyes, he'll turn for a moment, to regain his composure, and afterwards do like it's ok, there's no problem at all

:laughing: You got him. He's mostly following cygna on this, so normal sexual activity is probably ok. Actively trying to conceive is out of question :laughing:

And Hiems is soooo doomed :laughing:

He didn't think about it much, but given a choice, he would have been against it. Now that they're here, however, he'll do his best. Not that it'll be very good, at least emotionnally (and his touch won't help at all), but he'll try, at least from afar.

((I had totally forgotten about his Vulnerable Magic flaw. So, if Cygna touches anything that he's cast a spell on, including himself, it dispels the magic? And as long as he loves her, he can't cast a spell on her? Although, I'm not sure that "being touched by his Love" really counts as uncommon circumstances anymore.))

So will she.
[color=red]"Do I look like I feel alright?" ((I suspect that she may be a little...cranky during her pregnancy :smiley: ))

I don't remember seeing anything more official, at least with Ars. I was kind of disappointed in the use of different dice; I would have thought that they would have tried to keep the same basic mechanic for everything, as much as possible. And what I did in Canaries was, for a child of two magi, basically rolled a die and on anything other than 0, the child was gifted. If it had been a botch, I might have had it go with something else touched by magic but definitely non-hermetic.

[color=red]"And your hair," she replies, her voice barely more than a whisper. She looks up at Hiems. [color=red]"I just hope that they will be as beautiful as their father."

Cygna fusses with the boys for a couple of minutes to calm them down before she finally gives them each a tit. She looks up at Hiems, her eyes glistening. [color=red]"I'm so sorry, love. We'll figure something out, there has to be a way for you to hold your sons." (Maybe a MuCo Level 5 – base 2, "Change someone to give them a minor ability," R: Touch +1, D: Sun +2, T: Individual. Or blankets that have wards against cold on them.)

((Oh, I also was thinking earlier about how to do a "clean nappy " spell. PeCo, base 3 ("Do superficial damage to a body, for example, remove its hair."), R: Voice +2 (because, really...R: Touch ain't happening), D: Momentary, T: Individual, for a final spell level of 10. She could actually enchant a nappy with this effect, Touch range to make the effect level 5, 24 uses a day (+5), for an Enchantment Level of 10, which Cygna could do in a season. Probably the season after she does the personal Friendly Voices for Hiems. (Hmm...does "being soiled" count as a triggering action?) Unless one of their more enchantment-inclined friends wants to make some for her baby-shower? :smiley: ))

Cygna may or may not notice that Hiems is a little bothered by how fast it happened ((Com 0 + Folk Ken (Magi) 3 + die roll of 5 = 8 )), but if she does she will be upset by the fact that Hiems is bothered by it ("I'm sorry, moja ljubov'...I thought you wanted this, too. I didn't want to rush you into something.") and will go and be away from him for a while; if they were living together, he'd be on the couch :laughing: . But she would eventually get over it (sooner rather than later) and apologize for being upset, and ask what he wants. All she wants is for him to be happy.


I took "being burned" as "uncommon circumstance". Someone (AMUL?) suggested addind "or by the touch of his love", and it was cool and poetic if it meant the Lady.
But yeah.

In a way, since this part can be explained as purely psychological and an unconscious aptitude for Harnessed Magic, it can be dropped with time and confidence in his relationship with cygna (she won't desert him, nor will his magic), to keep the normal version.

Yes :laughing: :smiley: this is perfect :smiley:
This snaps him.
Calmly No... I guess not.
I shall leave you to rest. Take care of yourself.
He'll kiss her on the forehead, gently, and he'll leave, quietly.

Oh, no, don't worry! It's nothing, really. I'm already more than happy to have you all by my side.
And he means it, in a way. To him, this is way more than whatever he could have hoped, way more than what he deserves. So he should be grateful for this, and accept the fact that his monstrosity makes him a stranger to his own children instead of complaining about it, even if it pains him. Especially as it makes cygna sad. "Suck it up and cope", to quote a rich man. And it won't stop him from loving them, either, if only from afar.

:laughing: Awesome :laughing:

Com 0 + Guile (hiding his emotions) 2+1 + 1d10=6 = 9 Barely! :laughing:

In a way, children, especially 2, especially so fast, are, to him a sign that their love is blessed by god, so this is a (unexpected) relief of sorts to him and... Well, they are just so much like their mother! :smiley:
He's just certain he'll make an horrible father (so, something he'll try very hard and awkwardly not to be), and, before the birth, feared very much to transmit his "curse" to a child.

I'm pretty sure JeanMichelle had the original idea and I just got super excited by it.

I agree that it is no longer an uncommon circumstance. I'd argue that accepting the fiery heat of love into your life should have painful, transformative processes on our ice mage.

Also, when is this happening? I'm wondering if this ends up occuring while you're guesting in Mons Electi and binding the souls of our enemies to their bones. Just, you understand, to note the dichotomy.

I agree. It would be somewhat painful for Hiems, since he's having to almost reforge himself so he can be with Cygna. And it will tear her apart to see him going through such pain, wondering if she's doing the right thing by causing such pain, wondering if he will really be happy afterward, or if he will be angry with her for causing her such pain, but not willing to give up on her love for him, wishing she could take his pain on herself so he wouldn't have to suffer so.

They started sleeping together on the way back to Phoenix from England, at the beginning of the In My Mother's Footsteps thread (Spring 1223). I'm thinking they probably got seriously serious that summer...so the boys would be born around Spring of '24?

Didn't have a real firm time line set up, beyond the above.

Vulnerable Magic transforms into Harmless Magic. :smiling_imp:

My first thought was, "No way! Harmless Magic sucks!" Then I looked it up, noticed that it's in the same section of Mystery Cults as Vulnerable Magic so it could be another manifestation of his fae heritage, perhaps tied to the...what's it called, when you have a major change in your life that attracts faeries. And it's replacing a Major with a Minor. Although, looking at his spell list, he does have quite a few Perdo spells... and how would DEO work with Harmless Magic, anyway?

And I had forgotten that Cygna was on her way to meet Theraphosa at Mons Electi about whatever. (I'm going to pretend that being with Hiems now is making her giddy as a schoolgirl.)

DEO would work the same way that PeCo spells would work, as in it wouldn't be a lasting damage. It could weaken the demon for a round, but it would never be able to be killed by one of Heim's DEO's, or even a combination of his DEO's and another magus's if his casting would bring the total high enough to kill the demon. Does that make sense?