Hope of Verditius (Development)

This is the development thread. Huzzah. First Question: Can I bind a familiar during character development?

Random reserved post

Third post reserved.

Will place familiar here.

Rough Draft go!

Class: Magi
Age: 24 – Four Years Post Gauntlet
Warping: 0 (2)
Confidence: 2 (5)
Name: Hope (Baptismal)
Traits: Reclusive+1 Dismissive+2 Assertive-2
House: House Verditius
Characteristics: Int +2 Com +3 Per -2 Prs+3 Str -3 Sta+0 Qik+0 Dex+1
Virtues: Verditius Magic, Self-Confident, Ritual Power (Grant Minor Virtue), Variable Power (Grant Minor Virtue; Magic Theory), Good Teacher, Book Learner, Imbued With the Spirit of Vim, Puissant Magic Theory, Hermetic Prestige

Flaws: Blatant Gift, Weak Spontaneous Magic, Small Frame, Twilight Prone

Abilities: 195xp + Early childhood.
English 5 Charm 3 Folk Ken 2

Latin 4 (Hermetic Usage) Magic Theory 3 (Items), Craft: Metal 3 (Enchanting), Philosophiae 3 (Enchanting), Artes Liberales 1 (Ritual Magic), Parma 1 (Vim), House Verditius Lore 2 (Self-Initiation) Area Lore: England 2, Etiquette 2 (Hermetic)

Arts: 145xp
Creo: 6 Intellego: 0 Muto: 9 Perdo: 0 Rego: 0
Aq: 6 Au: 0 An: 0 Corpus 9 He: 0 Ig: 0 Im: 0, Me: 0 Te: 4 Vim: 6

Grant Minor Virtue
Creo Vim; Cost: 5 Points → One Fatigue Level, Five Confidence Points
R: Touch D: Mom T: Ind, Ritual
This is the Grant (Minor Virtue) power from page 39 of Realms of Power: Magic, modified to account for variable power. The target gains one of several possible virtues increasing their mystical abilities. Currently Hope can grant Inventive Genius, Imbued with the Spirit of Vim, Personal Vis Source (Vim), Second Sight, Affinity with Vim or Premonitions. In the case of Personal Vis Source, the vis manifests in the blood. The target must have the Gift to be granted a Hermetic Virtue. The virtue granted is permanent.
Base 25 (Non-Hermetic Effect)


Life Story:
Hope was abandoned to die by her parents, but a few months after her birth. Fate intervened and Mary of Verditius rescued Hope, adopting her as her own. Mary was a good mother at first, but as her Hubris grew she became obsessed with status, using Hope more as a piece to show off and treated her less and less like a daughter. When Hope discovered she could infuse people with raw power, it became even worse. She practically paraded Hope, bragging about the ability to make Vis Sources.

So Hope cut as much contact as she could as soon as she completed her Gauntlet. Thoroughly unhappy with her mother and her House she moved North to get away from them. She spent most of her time reading and studying arts. Her one bit of excitement so far was finding and binding her Familiar Tia, the Worm. Actually, Tia is probably actually a Serpent, but she calls her a Worm. Besides Tia is the perfect familiar for her. It means Hope doesn't need to tell anyone to bugger off. Another Verditius recently settled in her Covenant and he's particularly obnoxious so she's heading North once more, to the next Tribunal in fact.

Anyone see any glaring errors? Or not glaring errors? I should have 140 levels of spells. I intend to start at 25, with the last year spent finding/binding Tia.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but how did Hope come to have Ritual Power and Variable Power?

Also, "Craft: Metal"...isn't that Blacksmith?

Wow! As my daughter would say, that's way OP (overpowered). 4 Virtue points to be able to grant a person any one of six virtues permanently.

Are you sure that's legit?

My recollection of how Grant Virtue works is that it grants the virtue until it is granted to someone else. That's how I've always played it. And the variable power doesn't seem right to me...

The thing with Powers, as I understand it, is that they cost Magic Might to use (unless you use mastery points to reduce it to 0 - but again, you still need to be a being of Magic to do it).

And to grant the virtue Permanently, you lose the Magic Might cost until you consume Vis to replenish your Might Score, but it take a lot of vis to do so.

Basically, I don't see this as being something that a maga could do, unless she's a Magic Human or something, which is a can of worms of another colour entirely.

And Variable Power means that an individual power (e.g Shapeshifting) becomes more powerful as a certain factor increases (such as age, or an Ability score). I don't read that as being able to grant any Virtue you want, even if it is from a list.

Yeah, that's right, regarding the variable power. There is a Major, Supernatural virtue, Grant Virtue in RoP:Magic that works for beings without might. It costs fatigue. I don't recall if it costs fatigue for as long as the virtue has been granted, which is how I would expect it to work.

RoP:M allows Ritual Power as a Major Virtue. The 1 Fatigue and 5 Confidence is correct. The Might Point cost of rituals for magical beings cannot be reduced to 0. It can be for faerie beings. Magic beings can spend Confidence in place of Might Score, so spending 5 Confidence permanently is consistent for permanent expenditure.

However, Variable Power is definitely being used improperly. If, say, tied to Warping Score, then at a Warping Score of 5 there would have been enough accumulation to include one more Grant (Minor Virtue). At a Warping Score of 10 there would be enough for a third. The six listed Minor Virtues would require a Warping Score of 25. Alternatively, that could be 250 years of age or an Ability with a score of 25.

Of course, then there is the whole question of whether or not our illustrious SG will even approve it if it follows the rules.

Also, wouldn't the Fatigue loss be permanent if the grant of of the Virtue were permanent? After all, the loss of Might is permanent in that case.

I think part of the problem is that Confidence is a commodity gained much more easily than Might. Confidence is routinely spent permanently, while Might is rarely used in such a way.

I don't think so. That cost is beyond what would normally be paid.

Consider the cost overall. 3 points of Virtues for Ritual Power. You can grant yourself that Minor Virtue for 5 Confidence. So you're at a net expense of 2 Virtue Points and 5 Confidence. From there you can probably only grant the Virtue to other people. So how much benefit can you earn from the 2 Virtue Points and 5 Confidence that you cannot get from 2x Personal Vis Source without spending the 5 Confidence, for instance? Doesn't sound great to me unless you set things up just right (a Minor Virtue that can be taken a few times, something that you can give to a bunch of assistant so that you profit semi-directly too, etc.) Variable Power does help it out. But there is still a limit to how many times you can spend the Confidence. I would think the first place to put the extra points from Variable Power is to reducing the cost to 3 Confidence Points. Even then...

The Ritual power states that "If permanent, the power is a ritual-like power and costs points from the creature’s Might score as well as Might pool," i.e., the Might cost is permanent.

The Ritual Power Virtue states that: "This is designed like a Ritual Power as described under Major Qualities above, but since the character does not have a Might Score, activating it always costs him a number of Fatigue levels equal to (the effect’s Might Point cost divided by 5, rounded up). In addition, activating the power costs a number of Confidence Points equal to the Might Point cost of the power." So, a 25 point Ritual power costs 1 Fatigue and 5 confidence instead of 5 Might. Logic says that if the 5 Might cost were permanent, the 1 Fatigue and 5 confidence cost (which replaces the Might cost) would also be permanent. Why would part of the cost be non-permanent in that case?

I disagree for a few reasons.

First, you note that the 3 Virtue cost of the power is essentially dropped to 2 since you state that you could just grant yourself the Virtue. You've now allowed a player to gain a Virtue for the cost of 5 Confidence - an amazingly good deal in a game where new Virtues are very hard to get. In the alternative, you've discounted a major Virtue, which is, in my view, suspect.

Second, you've upended the Virtue economy. Normally you get your starting Virtues and then nothing unless you go through the arduous process of initiating. Now all you have to do is let a character accumulate a few confidence (2-3 adventures) and they can grant a new virtue. Wow, I mean, wow. That's incredibly good.

Third, you're right, you can "only" grant it to other people. But that's huge. Soon your companion has it, maybe a grog or two that you like. And what about other magi/companions? Would you pay a lot of vis to get a new Virtue? I know I would. This could be a huge money-maker for a character. 30 vis to gain Inventive Genius? Sign me up!

Oh god this blew up!

Okay, first if we agree its overpowered or not fitting we can ditch it. And guessing from the response.... Ditto if we don't agree on the rules interpretations.

Regardless I'm going to explain the thought process. It a) Fit really nicely into the life story without involving extra creativity. b) Its a friendly pro-team ability. I think at a minimum it would require a concentration

Fun fact: Magical Creatures have the option of spending confidence too.

Also completely irrelevant to this character.

I was thinking of the bolded part

The way I interpreted that as it added a similar power. And the one ritual power is really six powers collapsed into one. If you still don't think its right I'll toss it for sure. Esp

Even without the rule issue, I sort of want to free up a virtue point and I definitely think they should be more thematic. Either six flavors of Vis Source or six Imbued with Spirit of (Form) or maybe if we push it a mixture of the two.

I thought about that and decided against lowering the cost. Also I'm not sure if variable power CAN lower the cost.

This made me think; if we keep any virtue granting she needs to take Oversensitive about it. Strangers asking for a virtue, especially ones who offer to pay for it. The way I see it five confidence is a huge mental effort and not something you'd put for a random person, and definitely not for money.

My thought was sort of an overflowing Gift. Its why Blatant Gift is on there in fact. That said, if you don't think it fits a maga we should kill the idea with fire. Its not important enough to clash with the Storyguides vision of the world.

So in summary, kill it with fire? I wonder if I can make this a poll...

I get what you're looking at. But honestly, this isn't six powers collapsed into one. That would be like shape changing into a really big wolf with steel claws, etc. (change to wolf, increase Size, claws changed to steel, etc.) This is six different powers that fall under the same Ritual Power name all usable individually.

Also, the rule for adding a similar power should not essentially obviate the other option. You're supposed to gain 5 points or the equivalent, not 25 points instead of 5 points. Let's say you have a dispelling effect against Vim magic for 25 points. You could have had it affect all magic just as well for double the cost. So allowing it to dispel Imaginem as well would be a very reasonable addition for the equivalent of 5 points. What you're adding isn't nearly that similar, and it isn't nearly that close to 5 points.

Since you can only have one Imbued with the Spirit of (Form), that would make a lot of sense with what you wrote above. Going from Imbued with the Spirit of Vim to Imbued with the Spirit of Vim/Terram would really only be an enhancement around the 5-point level.

I'm pretty sure it can. It's not truly explicit but nearly so, and if the reading does not all that the Virtue pretty much can't do anything at all. That is one of the explicit applications of more levels of a power, and this Virtue gives more levels of a power. You can't lower the cost below half, though, since that's a limit imposed in Ritual Power.

Fun Fact: The Ritual Virtue (which is what a non-magical creature must take instead of Ritual Power, which you quoted) costs both Fatigue and Confidence.

So, a 25 point Ritual power costs a non-magical creature both 1 Fatigue and 5 confidence, instead of 5 Might.

Let's correct the end: instead of a total of 5 points between Might and Confidence.

The point I was making above is that having it cost 5 Confidence permanently is not some special benefit for a non-magical being. Magical beings can spend the same thing. So it's not some bypass that is letting the character get the power more cheaply. Rather, spending a Fatigue (presumably long-term) and 5 Confidence (permanently) is more expensive than it would be for a magical being. Also, if the magical being expends Might, it is not necessarily a permanent loss; so why would the Fatigue have to be permanently lost instead of just being a long-term expenditure? So 5 Confidence (permanently) and 1 Fatigue temporarily is really not getting out of anything cheaply. It's perfectly fair.

I think you've confused your math. You said 2-3 adventures to pick up the Confidence Points. Let's say 1 adventure/year, which seems somewhat typical. That means this power can be used once every 2.5 years. Over that time two Personal Vis Sources would probably give you 20 pawns (at 4/year). I've never seen lower for Personal Vis Source, and if we're swimming in Vis it could be more. That means the magus with two Personal Vis Sources would gain 5 Confidence Points and at least 20 Vis in the same time without having to put in the effort to set things up with a buyer. Even if you could keep finding magi who would pay 30 Vis, which is unlikely (see below), this isn't blowing away two Personal Vis sources.

Now let's check the scale. How about the Virtues you can already somewhat buy for Vis? Stat boosting? 30 pawns would get you roughly +3 to something, and that's without using Circle/Group. So you could get +3 to Stats for less (I had a character selling them for 2-3 pawns per +1 for a massive profit, but you had to do it on her schedule.), and this is worth more points of Virtues than Inventive Genius. If you really want Virtues, join the Children of Hermes or another cult that lines up with your interests. You can effectively get a lot of stuff from enchantments, too. Want to see in the dark, put an effect in your talisman or familiar bond for much less than 30 pawns for an equivalent to that Virtue. Go to the Magic Realm and get Inventive Genius for 10 pawns. The static part of the Vis economy does not really match up with 30 pawns for Inventive Genius. You may find someone willing to pay it. But that would be a rare someone. I'm really not sure you could consistently get enough to even be the equivalent to 2x Personal Vis Source + 5 Confidence Points/use.

Wouldn't spending 5 confidence require the self confident virtue to have access to a pool of 5 confidence to begin with ?

Not really. You can accumulate any number of Confidence Points, and this expenditure is not limited by the score. Plus, the character design includes Self-Confident anyway.