House Rules discussions

Quoting from the House Rules page:
"The Aegis must penetrate for the warding effect, but does not need to penetrate for any of its other effects (e.g. to affect casting totals or magical abilities)."

Seeing as how it's technically a Rego Vim and not a Perdo Vim (not even as a requisite), it would suppress the effects while it's in the Aegis.

Since callen brought it up, let's talk about Constant effect items. This came up recently, and I remember speaking about it with callen in the main forum. The RAW, as interpreted by David Chart is that the item, once activated can never be activated on another again, and that the D:Sun, 2x/day is just how you pay for constant, not how the device actually works. One could also, theoretically, make a constant effect item, activate it and bury it/lock it away in one's sanctum and it's always active, by the reasoning that spells that have their recipients move out of range still keep the active effect. I think it's horrible.

Can we instead say that Constant items, aren't really constant as above, and that the recipient of the effect must be within range to have the effect renewed at sunrise/sunset, without any flickering of the effect. That they are constant, so long as the recipient is within range of the item, and when out of range, their effect will expire at the next sunrise/sunset, allowing it to be used by another at that time?

On the basic level I agree that the constant effect should not in carried out of range of the object. I was wrapping my head around "used by another". I guess it would depend on the target of the item. Or are you thinking that the effect is broken when out of range and even the person who had the constant effect on them out have to dig up the item ( in their sanctum ) and activate it again to get the effect?

Can you give an example, Jonathan?

The range issue is complicated, because the way Hermetic magic works, is that effects can always last when moved beyond the range at which they were cast. It's the nature of the beast. Changing that exclusively for constant effect items is not a good idea, in my opinion.

My concern is the one that callen voiced earlier, that an item with a constant effect can have that effect essentially destroyed by a simple Unraveling on the effect. If the effect is never recast (as David Chart says) and lasts forever, then unraveling the effect destroys that effect in the item. And it's very easy to unravel the effect, unlike disenchanting the item, which requires a ritual, time and vis.

Here's where the constant effect issue was discussed:

As far as an example. Callen maga creates an object that is constant in effect, she gets into an argument with my magus, who is a counterspelling fiend and he dispells the effect. The item (or at least the invested effect) is now useless, since the effect cannot be recast at the next sunrise/sunset. The reasoning is that D:Sun, 2x/day environmental trigger is how one pays for constant effects, and it works by casting the effect once and being done. The effect cannot be recast on another recipient at a later time, and never expires, unless the item is broken (although I question this, somewhat), the effect is dispelled or the item is disenchanted. Of course, dispelling the effect is much easier, and doesn't even require the presence of the item to effectively destroy it.

There are also the side issues of other constant magic: good bye longevity ritual, good bye familiar bond, good bye talisman bond... :frowning:

Actually, noting the rule on Parma Magica. Parma Magica can be taken down much more simply than a constant effect. And with the house rules even Parma Magica doesn't get knocked down by an Aegis. So constant effects really should not.

We could say that these effects cannot be targeted, other than with rituals...

Granted, the Aegis doesn't destroy the constant effect, it just suppresses it. So we don't have to worry about aegides destroying constant effect items. It still is trivial for an Unraveling to do so. We could extend what I said above to constant effects, too, but those are a bit different than traditional active effects, IMO. I think it's cleaner to say that the item does operate at D:Sun, activating its effect if the recipient is present. Unraveling in that case means it comes back at the next casting time... And it also allows the item to be transferred to another. It doesn't make sense (to me) that constant effect items are for one and only one person, it just doesn't seem mythic to me.

Which is really the same as disenchanting requiring a ritual.

Which is still a problem in that your familiar will probably die or go nuts if you head off into a foreign covenant.

Also, the least constant of all these (talisman, familiar, longevity, constant effect) is the Longevity Ritual. How long can you be in a foreign Aegis and still benefit?

I would question this. The description of Wind of Mundane Silence strongly suggests constant effects do not get dispelled by non-ritual Perdo Vim.

As for the range issue, we could also just disallow constant effects on other things. That to me is what seems really un-mythic. Temporary dispelling of constant things doesn't solve the issue for me because it makes things un-mythic in a different direction. For example, why carry the ring to a volcano, let's just temporarily dispel it because that's easy and then smash it? Temporary dispelling on constant effects essentially makes disenchanting non-ritual just a little less so with the reactivation rule.

Yes, disenchanting should be a ritual effect. I think that's clear. And with regards to the Aegis and the familiar bond, the aegis isn't targeting the bond, perhaps we can be good with the Aegis doesn't affect a familiar bond, even though it is a quasi-magical effect, and that it only affects the powers of the bond. Meaning communication (without penetration) is impossible when inside a foreign Aegis. I'm good with that.

I don't get that same suggestion from Wind of Mundane Silence...

Most magical things (you can check RoP:M on this) are handled via constant effects excepting the Might itself. This can include their ability to breathe even.

Why aren't they just dispelled, returning later?

It says near the area, not in the area...

Magical things, unless they take the inferiority, don't need to breathe, do they?


Hmm... Sounds right. But then why would some be given a constant power to breathe underwater? Maybe it's an error. I'll have to double-check on needing to breathe.

Still, I hate the idea of fundamental abilities of magical beings just being dispelled with ease. If it's a power they can put up but isn't always active, that's one thing. But should the fundamental parts of the being, written as constant powers, really be dispelled so easily? For example, should a many-eyed gorgon lose most of its eyes via a simple PeVi dispelling effect? That just feels so wrong. Even just walking into an Aegis? Let's say the gorgon has enough Might to walk into the Aegis. But the power is R: Personal and so written with 0 penetration. Should a gorgon powerful enough to enter an Aegis lose most of its eyes while doing so? That still feels really wrong.

As I mentioned, I agree with you about the oddness of constant effects on other things. I would prefer we just say constant effects must be on themselves or things they are part of in some way.

How about a compromise? Constant effects that don't affect themselves aren't really constant, they are, instead, indefinite in duration. D:Sun 2x/day, environmental trigger is constant on the item, but on anything else, it's subject to change.

Edit: and that unraveling or destroying the effects in the case of constant effects upon the item/being itself requires a ritual, and canceling the effect when it is an indefinite duration doesn't effectively destroy the device, the effect is recast at the next time.

That could certainly work. I do think the actual 2/day for constant on something else makes much more sense than truly constant, whereas for effects on beings and items themselves truly constant makes more sense. Perhaps we could use the terms "constant" for truly constant and "persistent" or "indefinite" (your word) or something like that for things that keep running if not interfered with (not being in range at sunrise/sunset, unraveling, etc.).

I think Winds of Mundane Silence is very specific to dispel constant effects. It does not effect Momentary duration spells and can dispel Parma Magica.

I do not think it is a reach to say that a ritual is needed to dispel a magic item since the spell to do that is a ritual.

There has been no answer to these, so I figure I should bump them.:

Would a wand count as a tool if the wand is a talisman? Generally, I'm thinking of two things: 1) Excellent Quality items, which we're not using at all and so are irrelevant here (thus the "generally" comment); 2) Items of Quality - Verditius Mystery. Could it be used for a Finesse roll bonus (not score bonus, just rolls)? Clearly item 2 is the only important one here, but I felt it worth mentioning both in general.

Armor could be made as an Item of Quality - Verditius Mystery for a bonus to Soak since Soak is rolled against spells and similar things. Would the bonus count for Soak at other times? By RAW, no. But a lot of people seem to play that way.

It doesn’t feel right to me that an “Constant Effect” item can never be recast. But this is actually a wrinkle that hadn't occurred to me (as I've not been spending much time on the main forums the last few timeframes. What if, for example, someone had a pendant made that cast Aura of Ennobled Presence on them, twice a day with an Environmental Trigger. If they were to die, would the pendant then be useless? If the person wanted (for whatever reason) to appear less Ennobled, are they s.o.l.? Or can they just put the pendant away for a while, then don it again when they want the effect?

I was actually under the impression that it was "permanent" only as long as the target was touching the item (or vice versa) for a R: Touch spell, or was within the room for a T: Room, or within the building for a T: Structure, and that if the target were no longer an applicable Target, the spell expired and would have to be recast again. Which means that, theoretically, you could have an item cast a D: Sun effect, trigger it in one room, then move it to another room and retrigger it there, so for a while it's going on in two places at once. However, at the next sunrise/sunset, both effects would expire, since it's out of charges for the day. But that's a price I'm willing to pay.

My inclination is to say that Sun-duration (or Moon) effects will continue un-interrupted so long as the subject is at the appropriate range; should the subject be out of range when the Environmental Trigger would kick in, then the effect expires and can be retriggered either at that time or a later time.

If an item's effect is dispelled (by a spell-dispelling spell such as Unravelling the Fabric of (Form) or Wind of Mundane Silence), the item is not disenchanted. There's a separate spell for that: Disenchant.

And I agree that Aegis doesn't affect Longevity Rituals, Familiar bonds, etc. It may affect the powers, but not the bond itself...the Silver Cord will not be severed by a strong enough Aegis.

I might have a better, more coherent answer tomorrow, when it's not so close to my bedtime.

This is very nearly exactly the canon example of what you do with D: Concentration maintained by the item. This is not the ArM5 intention for constant effects.

It's been two weeks that the poll question ("Shall we adopt the House Rule to have a corpse's Brawl score = the Caster's Finesse rather than 3?") has been up. The final tally is:

  • Yes: 2
  • No: 4

So, we will go with the RAW of the corpse's Brawl score be 3.