House Rules discussions

Do you need a whole new concept? Or just take Cabal Legacy and hope to initiate the Virtue soon?

Cabal legacy doesn't do anything by itself. And faffing around with trying to get into a mystery cult will take away too much from the faerie centric stories that I actually want to get involved in.

Are we allowing the "pink dot defense" to work? Personally, I really hope not. But we should definitely be clear on this one so I ask.

My opinion is that:

  • Any item wholly created from magic is resisted.
  • Any item substantially changed (e.g. from wood to iron, or from human to bear) is resisted.
  • Minor changes to an item are resisted, but the item itself is not.
  • An item is not resisted if there are no active enchantments. If an "inert" item is activated by a magus, and the item is to affect the magus, it must penetrate his Resistance or he must drop his Parma momentarily so that it can take effect.

Thus, a sword that is changed from grey to yellow is not resisted, but the sword's true colour shows when it passes through the magus's Parma.

What think you?

Works for me. It's a big deal for familiars. You can use your claws with no penetration, but now that you look more lively (MuIm with no penetration) or similar maybe you have to penetrate. Answer is no. But if your claws transform into steel, then you do. This sounds quite appropriate.

That is how I read it. As I recall from the description, if you are hit with a wave created by ReAq you still get wet though it has no other effect (no knockback, damage, etc) but f you are hit by a jet of CrAq water you stay dry.

How about Blade of Virulent Flame? Flame damage blocked, but not the sword damage?

That's the way I prefer it.

That would be correct.

While we're on it, the really big magic-resistance-type issue: how does Aegis of the Hearth resist items (and thus also powers in the familiar bond) it resists? ArM5 is not specific on this. I would think it would dispel non-constant effects without enough penetration that enter, like all other things. (I hate the idea of constant effects being dispelled by Aegis of the Hearth because that would disenchant the device, which usually requires its own ritual.) But using items from within I would think it would reduced penetration on the items like creature powers since items really have powers and not casting totals.

Quoting from the House Rules page:
"The Aegis must penetrate for the warding effect, but does not need to penetrate for any of its other effects (e.g. to affect casting totals or magical abilities)."

Seeing as how it's technically a Rego Vim and not a Perdo Vim (not even as a requisite), it would suppress the effects while it's in the Aegis.

Since callen brought it up, let's talk about Constant effect items. This came up recently, and I remember speaking about it with callen in the main forum. The RAW, as interpreted by David Chart is that the item, once activated can never be activated on another again, and that the D:Sun, 2x/day is just how you pay for constant, not how the device actually works. One could also, theoretically, make a constant effect item, activate it and bury it/lock it away in one's sanctum and it's always active, by the reasoning that spells that have their recipients move out of range still keep the active effect. I think it's horrible.

Can we instead say that Constant items, aren't really constant as above, and that the recipient of the effect must be within range to have the effect renewed at sunrise/sunset, without any flickering of the effect. That they are constant, so long as the recipient is within range of the item, and when out of range, their effect will expire at the next sunrise/sunset, allowing it to be used by another at that time?

On the basic level I agree that the constant effect should not in carried out of range of the object. I was wrapping my head around "used by another". I guess it would depend on the target of the item. Or are you thinking that the effect is broken when out of range and even the person who had the constant effect on them out have to dig up the item ( in their sanctum ) and activate it again to get the effect?

Can you give an example, Jonathan?

The range issue is complicated, because the way Hermetic magic works, is that effects can always last when moved beyond the range at which they were cast. It's the nature of the beast. Changing that exclusively for constant effect items is not a good idea, in my opinion.

My concern is the one that callen voiced earlier, that an item with a constant effect can have that effect essentially destroyed by a simple Unraveling on the effect. If the effect is never recast (as David Chart says) and lasts forever, then unraveling the effect destroys that effect in the item. And it's very easy to unravel the effect, unlike disenchanting the item, which requires a ritual, time and vis.

Here's where the constant effect issue was discussed:

As far as an example. Callen maga creates an object that is constant in effect, she gets into an argument with my magus, who is a counterspelling fiend and he dispells the effect. The item (or at least the invested effect) is now useless, since the effect cannot be recast at the next sunrise/sunset. The reasoning is that D:Sun, 2x/day environmental trigger is how one pays for constant effects, and it works by casting the effect once and being done. The effect cannot be recast on another recipient at a later time, and never expires, unless the item is broken (although I question this, somewhat), the effect is dispelled or the item is disenchanted. Of course, dispelling the effect is much easier, and doesn't even require the presence of the item to effectively destroy it.

There are also the side issues of other constant magic: good bye longevity ritual, good bye familiar bond, good bye talisman bond... :frowning:

Actually, noting the rule on Parma Magica. Parma Magica can be taken down much more simply than a constant effect. And with the house rules even Parma Magica doesn't get knocked down by an Aegis. So constant effects really should not.

We could say that these effects cannot be targeted, other than with rituals...

Granted, the Aegis doesn't destroy the constant effect, it just suppresses it. So we don't have to worry about aegides destroying constant effect items. It still is trivial for an Unraveling to do so. We could extend what I said above to constant effects, too, but those are a bit different than traditional active effects, IMO. I think it's cleaner to say that the item does operate at D:Sun, activating its effect if the recipient is present. Unraveling in that case means it comes back at the next casting time... And it also allows the item to be transferred to another. It doesn't make sense (to me) that constant effect items are for one and only one person, it just doesn't seem mythic to me.

Which is really the same as disenchanting requiring a ritual.

Which is still a problem in that your familiar will probably die or go nuts if you head off into a foreign covenant.

Also, the least constant of all these (talisman, familiar, longevity, constant effect) is the Longevity Ritual. How long can you be in a foreign Aegis and still benefit?

I would question this. The description of Wind of Mundane Silence strongly suggests constant effects do not get dispelled by non-ritual Perdo Vim.

As for the range issue, we could also just disallow constant effects on other things. That to me is what seems really un-mythic. Temporary dispelling of constant things doesn't solve the issue for me because it makes things un-mythic in a different direction. For example, why carry the ring to a volcano, let's just temporarily dispel it because that's easy and then smash it? Temporary dispelling on constant effects essentially makes disenchanting non-ritual just a little less so with the reactivation rule.

Yes, disenchanting should be a ritual effect. I think that's clear. And with regards to the Aegis and the familiar bond, the aegis isn't targeting the bond, perhaps we can be good with the Aegis doesn't affect a familiar bond, even though it is a quasi-magical effect, and that it only affects the powers of the bond. Meaning communication (without penetration) is impossible when inside a foreign Aegis. I'm good with that.

I don't get that same suggestion from Wind of Mundane Silence...