HR and CD discussion

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: A Dirge for the Order
121

I used to be of that mind. And I see how it makes sense, but realistically, how often is a magus going to actually do the craft, pursue the craft, study the craft and perform the craft. Ultimately it takes time away from magic development. It can make sense for some characters that derive a substantial benefit from a strong Crafting skill, like Verditius, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense for a Rego Crafter in the long arc of the character.

How would you quantify that bonus? If we treat the bonus similarly to how Magic Theory is used in Magic research, it's a cap of +3, and you require a ridiculously high Magic Theory score to get that bonus so for Crafting you need a ridiculously high Crafting score. If you divide the Crafting ability by 2, perhaps, the bonus for someone who is pretty well trained at 6 (a professional) is only +3, which is simply an Ease Factor, in exchange for 105 XP. 105 XP is a lot, if we start from zero and assume 10 xp per season, it takes 11 seasons to get to that level. Granted characters being generated can plunk down 105 XP, pretty easily, but that's a substantial portion of the total XP, and competes against other abilities and Arts.

I've been thinking about this issue for a while, and all adding an ability to factor into the EF for any crafting does is force the magus to spread himself out, and not dive deeper into magic. One of the things I'd like to see, hearkens back to something Timothy Ferguson wrote, but I can't find, about Art scores representing knowledge in mundane abilities. I dislike that for several reasons, but have been thinking about having spell levels add up to a derived ability score. If you have 75 levels of stone spells, you have an effective ability score of Stonecrafting of 5, or something. But, it's not polished, or even deeply thought at this point, more of a wisp of an idea.

122

First draft of Proteus' familiar, Ethel the Gadfly. Been a while since I made a magic critter using these rules, so I hope I got everything right.

The might calculation breaks with creatures of this size, so I just made him with 15 points of qualities and 25 Might. In principle it could be 15 x 5 = 75 might just for the small size, but that seems ridiculous.

Ethel

Characteristics: Int +2, Per +3, Pre -3, Com -2, Str -31, Sta +1, Dex +3, Qik +16

Size: -15

Season: Summer

Gender: Female

Virtues and Flaws: Size: -15*, Magic Animal, Premonitions*, Lightning Reflexes (Initiative on Surprise Attack: +9), Might 25 (Corpus) [Form: Corpus], Magical Covenfolk, Tough (Soak: +3), Minor Essential Virtue (Hard to Kill)*, Keen Sense of Smell (Bonus: +3 to rolls involving smell), Poor Eyesight (Penalty: -3), Reckless, Greedy

Qualities and Inferiorities: Minor Virtue (Premonitions), Minor Virtue (Minor Essential Virtue), Gift of Speech, Personal Power × 5: 125/125, Improved Powers × 1: 5/5, Greater Power × 2: 100/100

Personality Traits: Reckless +3, Hard to Kill* (Sta) +3

Soak: +4

Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious

Wound Penalties: -1 (1), -3 (2), -5 (3), Incapacitated (4), Dead (5+)

Abilities: Brawl 5 (dodging), Premonitions 4 (swatting), Magic Theory 2 (inventing spells), Latin 3 (hermetic usage), Magic Lore 2 (creatures), Survival 3 (home terrain), Awareness 4 (food), Athletics 4 (flying), Hunt 4 (prey)

Powers:

Hands of the Magical Animal (Personal: 25), Points: 0, Initiative: Qik-1, Form: Terram, Range: Touch, +1, Duration: Sun, +2, Target: Ind, +0, Level: ReTe15, Design: 15 levels, Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 constant, -2 Might cost

Vanish (Greater: 25), Points: 1, Initiative: Qik-2, Form: Imaginem, Range: Per, +0, Duration: Sun, +2, Target: Ind, +0, Level: PeIm20, Design: 20 levels, Base 10, +2 Sun, -1 Might cost

Great Leap (Personal: 25), Points: 0, Initiative: Qik-1, Form: Animal, Range: Per, +0, Duration: Mom, +0, Target: Ind, +0, Level: ReAn15, Design: 15 levels, Base 15, -2 Might cost

Confuse Prey (Greater: 20), Points: 2, Initiative: Qik-2, Form: Mentem, Range: Voice, +2, Duration: Sun, +2, Target: Ind, +0, Level: ReMe20, Requisite: Animal, Design: 20 levels, Base 4, +2 Voice, +2 Sun

Nose of the Bloodhound (Greater: 25), Points: 3, Initiative: Qik-2, Form: Corpus, Range: Arc, +4, Duration: Conc, +1, Target: Ind, +0, Level: InCo25, Requisite: Animal, Design: 25 levels, Base 3, +4 Arc, +1 Conc, +1 scent acts as Arcane Connection

Pierce the Thickest Hide (Greater: 5), Points: 1, Initiative: Qik+0, Form: Animal, Range: Touch, +1, Duration: Mom, +0, Target: Part, +1, Level: PeAn5, Design: 5 levels, Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part

Sturdiest Innards (Personal: 25), Points: 0, Initiative: Qik-2, Form: Animal, Range: Per, +0, Duration: Sun, +2, Target: Ind, +0, Level: MuAn25, Design: 25 levels, Base 15, +2 Sun, -3 Might cost, 3 mastery points

Dissolution (Greater: 25), Points: 3, Initiative: Qik-2, Form: Terram, Range: Voice, +2, Duration: Mom, +0, Target: Ind, +0, Level: MuTe25, Requisite: Corpus, Design: 25 levels, Base 3, +2 Voice, +2 affect metal, +2 affect humans and animals

Scent of Tasty Power (Personal: 50), Points: 2, Initiative: Qik-4, Form: Vim, Range: Per, +0, Duration: Sun, +2, Target: Smell, +2, Level: InVi45, Design: 45 levels, Base 25, +2 Sun, +2 Smell, -3 Might cost, 2 mastery points

123

I've written up a bunch of spells, and I'd like to get some comments on them:

Freely Spin (MuTe 5): Removes friction from apparatus. (Base 1 +2 metal, +2 sun, Circle)
Shape Iron Like Clay (MuTe 10): Makes a lump of iron as soft as clay to be reshaped. (Base 1, +2 metal, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)
Weld (ReTe 5): Fuses two metal surfaces together, making a seamless whole (Base 2, +2 metal, +1 Touch)
Craft the Interlocking Wheel (ReTe 15) Molds metal into a gear. This can be up to the size of a wagon wheel.(Base 2, +2 metal, +1 Touch, +2 Complexity)
Forge the Chain (ReTe 15) Reshapes metal into a chain. Each chain has identical links, but each casting could have different sized links (Base 2, +2 metal, +2 Voice, +1 Complexity)
Turn the Wheel (ReTe 15): Turns a wheel, generally used to start an apparatus. Finesse rolls are necessary to get desired speed. (Base 1, +2 metal, +2 Voice, +2 Sun)
Restore the normal (PeVi 15) Used to cancel spells. (Base 5, +2 Voice)

124

I am not sure that friction and what it does are understood in ME.

The goal seems to be to make a device that can run on magic. I would suggest to take a spell like your turning the wheel and make it duration Sun. Then make an exchanted wheel with the spell and give it an environmental trigger 2x per day.

125

Yeah, I think Freely Spin should probably be redesigned with Rego, magic keeps the apparatus working for D:Sun.
I see you have a later spell, Turn the Wheel which seems to satisfy the need for Freely Spin...

Restore the Normal, I'm not clear on its design. Based on Unraveling the Fabric of Terram?

126

Basically, I started to see myself as a tool and die maker. Mythic Europe has waterwheels and windmills, and certainly where the axles are held in place show signs of wear and heat. The idea is help turn smoothly. You are correct that that I'm making lathes that run on magic - the other spell, Turn the Wheel, provides the force to drive it.

I thought that I'd have a series of gears and axles in one place, and this would make something work properly, even if it hadn't been machined to exact tolerances.

I envision the character as a mechanical engineer, building machines powered by magic.

127

My first thought upon hearing your character idea was Terry Pratchett's Bloody Stupid Johnson :slight_smile: Nothing against you or your character but it was the first magical inventer/engineer that came to mind.

While your idea of removing wear, would people in ME think to remove friction or just make the wheel or axel harder so it would not wear

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128

I'm not sure the base 1 should be used for Turning the Wheel. Or what degree of speed and force is natural movement for Terram?
This is a device from a while back as a covenant item - though it never saw actual play.

Effect: Turning of the Mill

Rego Terram 4, R: Personal, D: Concentration, T: Individual

Total effect level: 19, requiring 2 pawns of Vis.

The is a moderate sized stone which is bolted in pace onto a millstone so that it can be powered by magic. When triggered The Humble Millstone will rotate in place, at the speed desired by the user. The stone can move vertically or in rotation, but not both at the same time to allow for cleaning. The trigger action is three knocks on the stone, and two knocks to stop it moving.

(Base 2, +1 Concentration, +1 Affect stone)

Lesser Enchantment levels (+10 Unlimited uses, +5 Device maintains concentration)

129

Well, metal files exist in ME. Abrasion clearly cuts away material. Something don't rub together well, but ice slides nicely on wet ice. Friction may not be the term used at the time, but the idea is to have a moving part slide easily over a bearing.

130

Then you want never disappearing grease.

The effect is to prevent wear on machine parts. A CrAn base 5 would work. It would be best is the axel secreated the grease so an enchanted object.

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131

You're right that base 1 isn't correct, it should be 2. There's an item I plan to make use of, from Transforming Mythic Europe, the Hermetic Generans (p. 125). The description of the power of the device is a STR+5, or about 1 horsepower.

Revision:
Turn the Wheel (ReTe 15): Turns a wheel, generally used to start an apparatus. Finesse rolls are necessary to get desired speed. (Base 2, +2 metal, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)

I appreciate the help in designing spells, as I've mentioned before, this is my first Ars Magica game.

132

Let me also extend my apologies, I've been super busy, and having been pushing.
I'll be responding fairly sparsely until next Wednesday 2/1. Combination of being busy and getting ready for a long weekend vacation. I may have time to respond to things in the evenings, but I'm liable to be exhausted...

133

Let me also add, that this game, more than most, is going to be strongly troupe oriented. I have certain biases, which I try and make clear upfront. If a consensus agree on something that I haven't otherwise stated is (such as spell mastery and the relaxed casting and the vis issues) then I'll roll with it. I still have things I want to put out there, but some of those things I wanted to wait to see how the characters were shaping up...

That being said. How do you guys feel about an SG PC? I don't have one in mind, yet, but it gives me some agency to get PCs to move in a certain direction, a bit more than I do as an SG...

134

I'm trying a different tack with these spells. I'm trying to build devices that have effects without vis. So, assemblies of gears that drive drills, or scoop water, and move it to a field. Now, a spell can certainly be crafted that does a precise task much better than any mechanical device, but it takes more time, and has a specific effect. So, we build devices that just need power, and then we use Turn the Wheel to do so. We use gear ratios to trade strength for speed.

I'm proposing a new Ability: Engineering. This Academic skill allows a character to design a set of plans to solve a particular problem. The mechanic for this is additive: devices are rated by a complexity factor. Each roll (done once a week) provides design points. When the number of design points exceeds the the complexity factor, you've finished the design, and you have a document, similar to a lab text. Failing the roll gives no progress toward the completed design, while a botch introduces a catastrophic failure that will not be noticed until the device is completed. If this idea is acceptable, we can work out the rules in more detail. I'm envisioning progress such that full season is enough to design all but the most complicated of machines.

Ultimately, I'd want to build a manufacturing plant. I understand that the campaign is about survival in Scandinavia, after a plague strikes, and that all of us are going to have to make adjustments in the new reality.

If you think this character focus is completely disjoint from where you want to take this campaign, let me know. I'll think of something else and go forward.

Best, John

135

JL - I'm a supporter of SG PCs, all I'd ask is that we all work together to define how you want the other stories run and their boundaries in terms of wider world impact. As Beta SGs we will need those edges so we can assist but not overrun the main themes.

136

As a concept yep awesome! As to the mechanics of the Engineering ability no idea. Introducing a week as a build or work unit duration is going to add a lot of book keeping.
What level of technological sophistication is reasonable in a mythical setting? Catapults and trebuchet are around, tunnelling and complex building Falsework for sure. That's a long way from a manufacturing factory in terms of complexity (I think)?
Do you mean something like "tree goes in, treated planks come out."?

137

The factory I envision will turn out a large number of metal items, nails, screws, bolts, knives, buckets, even bars of iron that can be sold to other places.

I think that getting to the equivalent of early 19th century is possible. Rather than a steam engine producing power, we can have powered wheels. For now, I'm imagining iron changed so it's as malleable as fine clay (MuTe), and then stamped into forms, then cancel the MuTe spell, and I've got a sword blank. Then that goes on a mechanical grinder, and I can make a no-frills, serviceable sword in minutes. Think of what you can do with ceramics, but use metal as the material.

I'm going to have to pick up the Craft: sculpture skill, or hire someone to mold things for me. Unfortunately, Calpurnia is the absolute last person who should be dealing with mundanes.

The big one is large-scale steel production. The process of making iron is quite labor intensive, and it's not until the 1300's that the process, known to the Arab empire, gets re-introduced to Europe. But purification, allowed through Rego, will allow us to make high-quality iron in great abundance.

Here's a reason I'd go to Scandavia, historically, it's the source of a lot of metals - there's a number of elements that are all named after one town in Sweden! I'd be looking for a rich iron mine, to find raw materials.

138

I've finally posted the completed advancement for Agnarr in his thread, Magus stats as at 21 years advanced, the summary of that advancement, Agnarr's polar bear familiar named Karhu, back story, custom spells, and spend on BPs which is still in draft. Feedback welcome. I think I'm very close to done.

139

I would like to pick a minor magical affinity for spells which target spells, or spells aimed at modifying spells.

Is that narrow enough, or should I make it narrower ?

I'm also pondering on making figurine magic a way my character tries to break down magic in subsets, or effecting magic. The idea is that, rather than using the wax puppet in order to target a specific character, I use the puppet to track and alter the magic emanating from that person. Is it possible ? Would this constitute some kind of breakthrough ?

An example would be, that I create a wax puppet of a fellow covenant magus, and imbuing Wizard's reach, in order to boost their spell range. Is it possible ?

140

Sheesh, that feels broad but might not be on second thought. I guess Vim has uses many beyond just altering spells, like hurting creatures and hunting vis, but a large part of it is altering spells (mu/re vi). What about specifying its just Hermetic spells? As that might be a factor in the setting where we are going to be. And assume its just spells linked to the Magic realm, not other realms or creature powers? Do you see it being able to affect spells from magical devices? I would, but thats just me.