HR and CD discussion

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: A Dirge for the Order
141

I have no idea :slight_smile:. I hadn't thought it could apply (or that mages could usually use) non-hermetic spells, to be honest.

I feel this focus can go a long way, as Hilbert's field of studies is about modifying spells (i.e. splitting spells in smaller parts which can then be combined). But then, I don't have enough experience with Vim to know whether meta-magic is a large part of it.

142

Indeed. That's almost the same focus as mine (I restricted it to : "spells modifying my own spell" to make it a valid minor focus (so only MuVi when targeting my own spell).

In my opinion spells that target spells is major (that's all MuVI guideline +ReVi like sustaining the demanding spell) the other is still too broad for a minor because that's ALL MuVi guidelines and that's suppose to be smaller that a TeFo combination.

143

I'm in agreement with IBT and Bitter, it's a Major Magical Focus.

144

Would limiting it to the magic realm/hermetic spells make it fit, as IBT suggested ? My goal is to have a focus on combining/splitting spells, but mostly as far as it applies to Hilbert's field of study. Alternatively,

Also, about Hilbert's flaws, are these acceptable ?
Social handicap (babbler)
Delusion (believes you can create any Form by mutating Vim form)

(so far, these are my virtues and flaws)
Virtues :
The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Puissant Magic Theory*
Flawless Magic, Cautious sorcerer, Inventive Genius, Figurine magic, Minor magical focus (meta), Affinity with Vim, Puissant Vim, Affinity with magic theory
Flaws :
Indiscreet, Optimistic, Social handicap (babbler), Obese, Magic addiction, Delusion (believes you can create any Form by mutating Vim magic)

145

"Combining and splitting spell" would qualify as minor focus for sure (because it's only a part of MuVi)

146

Is Indiscreet and Babbler very close on jntheme and impact, and how many personality flaws is that?
And is the delusion broad enough? I also thought that MuVi could change one spell into another but I'm potentially delusional too. :slight_smile: there is a base in Vim for changing the Form to another Form, which implies a huge change if Creo or Perdo is added.

147

magical focus "meta" is still the same as magical focus "spell on spell" and is still major...

148

I updated it to :

Virtues : The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Puissant Magic Theory* Flawless Magic, Affinity with Vim, Cautious sorcerer, Inventive Genius, Minor magical focus (spliting/merging spells), Puissant Vim, Figurine magic, Affinity with magic theory Flaws : Indiscreet, Optimistic, Social handicap (babbler), Obese, Magic addiction, Delusion (believes you can create any Form by mutating Vim magic)

Well, the idea of doing everything from Vim is a little bit larger than just transforming elements in specific circumstances, and one of the effects is that Hilbert would never seriously invest time in learning forms besides Vim.

I took Indiscreet (major) and babbler(minor) because they compliment well together ; I believe the difference is that indiscreet makes Hilbert unable to keep a secret, while babbler makes him pester you even after there is no more secret to tell. I almost picked Busybody, but that would have been to much to bear for his fellow sodales, I guess :slight_smile:

Here's the interim character. I'm not too sure how to handle the years between 5 and apprenticeship, as the other character sheets seem not to have used the exp they got from it (?).

Stats : 
Int   3   Pre   -2  Str   0   Dex   2
Per   0   Com   0   Sta   1   Qui   0

Childhood :
German 5 (Lübeck)
English 1
French 1
Swim 1
Baltic Lore 2 (Hanseatic cities)
Folk ken 2 (merchants)

Aprenticeship : 
Latin 4 (hermetic)                      50
Magic theory 5+2 (Vim)                  50(+25)
Parma Magica 1 (Parma Absorbea)         5
Penetration 1 (Vim)                     5
Craft: Sculpture 2 (wax puppets)        15
Artes Liberales 3 (Rituals)             30
Scribe 1 (Lab texts)                    5
Concentration 1 (spell concentration)   5
Finesse 1 (Vim)                         5
Order lore 2 (Colentes Arcanorum)       15
-------------------------------------------
                                        185
Arts : 
Cr 3  An 0  Ig 1
In 3  Aq 0  Im 0
Mu 3  Au 0  Me 0
Pe 3  Co 0  Te 0
Re 3  He 0  Vi 9+3

   30          25
149

Such a good friend :laughing:

150

Between age 5 and start of apprenticeship is 15xp per year (I think it's 15), spent on the same abilities as early life unless a virtue opens up more options. It's on p.29 of Ars buts it's not overly clear.

151

Working on spells that I think a Tremere architect would have.

CrTe 35 Conjuring the Fortress wall (ritual)
Makes one thousand feet of wall that is 30' high with 20' below ground and 20' thick at the base. It can come with guard and storage rooms, battlements and Barbican
Base 3 +1 touch, +5 size, +2 elaborate design.

PeTe30 Carve the Underground Hall
Used to carve underground complexes from solid rock. Arches are carved into the rock for extra support as well as touch sconces, stairs ( if needed). More elaborate decorations may require fitness rolls.
Base 4 +1 Part +3 size , +2 complex

152

For Carve you need a R:Toich at least.

153

I see that some masteries taken for some of the characters are not in the core book, is there a place where they are listed ?

154

some are in HoH:S in flambeau section ; some are in HoH: TL I believe, and some are in TMRE in Mercurian section I think.

155

or more conveniently here : germanitas.org/rpg/germ/download ... astery.pdf

beware that I don't know which one are allowed by the SG

156

Some of these seem very convenient, I'll have to see with Jonathan what is available.

Another question regarding spell manipulation : Supposing I see someone starts casting, and I decide to cast a mirror of opposition on his spell. Does my spell have to pierce the caster's defenses ? If not, do I have a window of opportunity if the spell has no time of travel, or can I only cast it on projectiles ?

(I had planned to do a simple character merely generating chaos around him, but the specific rules around Vim spell level thresholds makes it a very minutious task to calculate which combinations of spells work together... Damned scientific mages and their math addiction :imp:)

157

My 2c which might be dodgy... I think you can cast it on anything, and the SG gets to decide what it does.

  • First you need to use the rules for identifying what Form the spell is, because Mirror of Opposition is different for each Form, but I guess you might know if the caster had previously been shooting away with missile spells and just assume you're correct if your perception Check failed. The Perception check isn't going to slow down the rest.
    ... Perception + Awareness + roll vs. 15 - (effect mag). If the opposing aster has silent/subtle magic/deft magic it gets a lot harder.
  • Then if you are not cooperating with the other caster (fair assumption) you need to fast-cast the MoO:(form), as per p.159 of Ars about not being able to intercept the spell quickly enough. Its basically a -10 to casting roll with 2x extra botch dice, and you need the fast-cast Mastery option for the MoO spell.
  • Then your Penetration total for your casting roll (which includes that -10 mod) must beat the other caster's Penetration total
    (i.e. spell CT + roll - Spell level + Pen ability vs same from the other guy).
  • The rules imply that you don't need to penetrate the caster's parma which is great, although if they were casting a spell with Range: Personal upon themselves I'd argue that you'd also need to penetrate their Parma for it to work too (?).
  • The caster must be in range of your MoO spell too (voice), unless you've got a funky version or using an Intangible Tunnel and an AC.
  • I don't know what happens if they are fast-casting a mastered spell, but I think you still could fast cast to intercept and alter it (?).
  • You can't alter Spont spells with MuVi which is a bugger but it makes sense why.

Easy!

158

This is more or less why I dropped the idea of using this strategy on my character and moved to a lesser focus on MuVi and to affecting mostly my own spell. Even with 20Mu And 20Vim you'll have to rely on high penetration and arcane connection to be able to affect the other mage's spell (or maybe using life boost) also you'll have to master you spell to fast cast them (so flawless magic would be nice or it would mean that you'll spend an additionnal season each time you invent a spell to master it)

PeVi Is so much more efficient that the positive side effect of being able to redirect the spell to the caster or make it beneficial isn't worth the effort.

159

Oh, I hadn't thought of redirecting the target... I was more thinking about transforming PeCo spells into a frog rain, or something like that.

Now that you say it, though...

160

Let's pull at this meta magic thread - the reason that MuVi won't work on Spont is that it's (paraphrasing) "too chaotic and the caster will loose control" Ars p.159.
But that's what my (next) Vim specialist wants. He doesn't care what happens to the spell, only that it introduces chaos and the more the merrier. "Some men just want to see the magic world burn". If used as a mastered defensive spell being fast cast against another hostile wizard, it might be worth the risk... (yeah a stretch but worth a breakthrough?)