I want to gain a new Difficult Art... but there's no Tradition Lore and I'm unGifted

Example... Vampire Hunters from Against the Dark make use of a few Arts; Scry, Slay, and Ban, and then there's a series of "Foe" Arts that define the kind of creature(s) the vampire hunter can affect - typically Vampire. These are all Virtues. Taking the major Scry/Slay/Ban virtues grants the associated Art and also a free Foe Art... Which turns out to be for the most part the only Foe the hunter can magically target.

Now... If that hunter did want to extend their magic to affect werewolves... How would we do it?

It's a Difficult Art (an Art that advances on the Ability scale).

Were it a Supernatural Ability, they would just need a proficient teacher.

Were the hunter part of a tradition with a tradition lore, they would be able to attempt self-initiation to give themselves the new Virtue providing the Werewolf Foe Art.

Given the apparent need for the Virtues in the first place, the hunter has not had all their Arts opened, as with a magus, so can't simply study (it is said that they may not even be aware that there could be that option).

So what's the existing rules way of learning that additional Difficult Art when I'm not Gifted and not part of a magical tradition aware of its own lore?

How did the hunter initiate their original arts if they aren’t part of a tradition. Even if it’s a tradition with tight descent from parent to child wouldn’t they need (Mystery Cult) Lore 1 to initiate at all?

Good question on how the hunter learns their arts initially. Mechanically, they take a Virtue, which gives them a hunter art and a foe art.

But beyond that.. It's not clear (to me). I don't think they are mechanically tied to the Dhampir supernatural Virtue, but the characters as presented in AtD are linked to that background.

So it's a general question coming from the specific case here... No tradition lore, so can't self-initiate (by rules as written), and not sure whether learning/teaching is allowed to acquire difficult arts.

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They probably learn it the same way that hermetic apprentices learn their house virtues - being around their teachers long enough it essentially rubs off on them.

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Personally I see arts as something one can only take with being initiated or having their arts opened so they should have a single point of MC Lore because they can not be initiated without it, even by someone else. Obviously the ruling for MC Cult Hermetic Houses goes against this but I see that as a ruling so that active games at the time did not have to retcon their characters to know a level of MC Cult Lore from apprenticeship. If it is a tradition related to their family lineage and they were initiated and trained by the person who raised them perhaps you could use that excuse for not knowing the lore but if it were my game I’d probably say “move the 5 xp around and take the Lore at 1.”

House Mysteries for the MC houses are not learned that way.

Source? I don't think that's right. Yes, many cults like you to understand a bit about them before they'll initiate you, but I don't think it's a mechanical requirement.

From p11 of Mysteries, “(Mystery Cult) Lore and Degrees of Initiation“ inset:

The first Initiation requires a single level of (Mystery Cult) Lore, which explains the significance of what is to be learned and how to participate in the rites of Initiation.

From p4 of HoH:MC, in the second paragraph:

Initiates who have not been apprenticed to a member of the House need at least (House) Lore 1

To allow for the rule that meant players don’t need to retcon their Bjornaer, Criamon, Merinita, or Verditius magi.

EDIT: the higher levels of MC Lore for further initiations are not a mechanical requirement, merely a social one.

Hmm. Okay, I was wrong about that! Thank-you for the references.

Also, there are few mistakes about an unGifted person. Even if it were a Supernatural Ability, you'd have the same problem. You need the Gift to just be taught one if it's magical, other things if it's from a different realm. As for being in a tradition, you cannot self-initiate; you need a mystagogue and you need an Ordeal.

If this is from the start, though, you might use a different Realm. Let's say this comes from Faerie. Then you can learn new ones limited by your Faerie Rank instead of requiring the Gift. Is that an option?

You can be taught supernatural abilities... but there's a penalty equal to the sum of the scores in all other supernatural abilities - you need a study total sufficient to reach a score of one in the new ability (so, total penalty + 5).

But this is a difficult art... not an ability. So my fear is that this is different...


Tagging the esteemed authors to see if they have a view on how these guys could acquire new foe arts...

That doesn't work because of HMRE p.14 box Ungifted Initiations, unless you house rule.

There are however traditions without Tradition Lore, like the Learned Magicians who only have different Organization Lores, but (HMRE p.80 and especially p.88f UnGifted Mathematicus Initiations) still can initiate UnGifted members of their organizations.

So, if there is a Vampire Hunter organization with an Organization Lore, they might initiate your unGifted Vampire Hunter into werewolf hunting as well. Otherwise this is tricky. Given the different types of (AtD p.130ff) Vampire Hunters, the most likely organization to approach are the (AtD p.44) Hermetic Fectores.

You're paraphrasing the rule for someone with the Gift. That section begins with

Only characters with The Gift (see page 36) can learn supernatural abilities using these rules...

But, as I said, there are similar ways without the Gift if the source is a different Realm. True Faith works for Divine Abilities. Faerie Rank works for Faerie Abilities and also caps the gain so you need Faerie Rank 5+, which means you need Faerie Sympathy/Antipathy. Only the Infernal is super-accessible because it wants you to sell your soul.

Now, there are other ways, too. E.g. go to the Magic Realm or Eudokia or on a pilgrimage.

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Yes, correct on the Gift and learning supernatural abilities...

Either way... I'm still stuck as these are Arts... Seems no RAW way to acquire them given the tradition has no Lore ability.

I just gave you a couple RAW ways above: Magic Realm Transformation (if it's Magic) or Eudokia (if it's Faerie).

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Yes, thank you. I think there's also the option to have them granted by a faerie or similar with an appropriate power...

So there are the narrative options... Transformation, etc.

In this particular case, the lack of a lore is intentional (IIRC). unGifted Hunters are limited to one Foe. The solutions presented in this thread are fine, because they are marginal -- there is no 'normal' ways of doing it.
Of course, you could give them a tradition lore and solve the problem through self-initiation.
Mark S.

No, because unGifted characters cannot use self-initiation.

Mystery Cult Lores are a subset of Organization Lores and the added info provided by the Bologne Mathematici Org Lore seems to fit the bill of a MC Lore:

A character with this Ability has knowledge of the following: the general effects that charms and amulet magic pro-duce, the identities of the powerful mem-bers of the Mathematici of Bologna, their history, and the secrets of the tradition.

From Mysteries, first sentence of the description of mystery cult lores:

(Mystery Cult) Lore is the (Organization) Lore of a particular cult.