Immortal magi and RoP:Magic

Combining the rules for magical immortal magi from TMRE and RoP:Magic character advancement and management rules requires some thought. How do you manage the issue ?

Some issues that come to my mind:

Are immortal magi still be protected by the Oath or not ? According to TMRE, it seems that the legal status of living ghosts is somewhat more precarious, since they technically died and their Oaths expired. OTOH, they could re-swear their Oaths and re-join the Order. About alchemical immortals and Aspects of Daimons, they never died, only underwent a mystical transformation, so it is difficult to see what would terminate their membership. Is there any legal precedent that states Order membership be limited to "living mortal humans" ? IIRC, there is none. While there are going to be several mages that would prefer to strip immortal fellows from protected status in order to be free and sack their resources, and not to have them as political top dogs, OTOH there are going to be many other mages that would feel protective of their immortal elders (Bjornaer, Criamon, Merinita, theurgists come to mind) and/or look forward to possibly becoming immortal themselves.

About the potentially controversial issue of studying times, it appears that immortal magi, while not liable to death by deprivation, are still hampered by lack of sleep (since they cannot recover Fatigue or Might if deprived), so they would still be limited to the usual four seasons. However, they have an advantage here since they can make extensive use of unsual lab schedules without fearing Aging or Warping side-effects. A little balance to their serious learning penalties.

About learning, a big issue is whether magical immortals can consume vis in order to "fix" their learning, as an alternative to talisman-binding, or not. IMO they do, and talisman-binding and vis-consumption are alternative means of performing the same process. Talisman-binding is just an alternative way of fixing learning, which hermetic magic allows to magical immortal magi.

Concerning Acclimation, it seems that magical immortal magi would still be liable to it. This is no real problem for Daimons, who are permanent residents of the Magic Realm anyway, and only send temporary Aspects to earth, and it may be a serious problem for Living Ghosts who raise their Might beyond which the magical aura of their Haunt may sustain. They would then be forced to make periodical vis-hunting forays in possessed bodies, unless they can establish their Haunt in a covenant.

Alchemical beings have a choice of taking residence in a strong magical aura, sacrificing some seasons of study by spending them in the Magic Realm, or using the bond-effect route. Alchemical immortals have less problems than living ghosts about taking residence in a covenant, which would pretty much settle the Acclimation issue through the bond-effect route. Solitary and reclusive immortals would have to seek residence in an Aura, although I surmise that training an apprentice would work to satisfy the bond-effect requirements. Vis consumption ought to be only a last-ditch option, except maybe for living ghosts.

OTOH, it must be remarked that if a powerful magical immortal can stave off Acclimation by other means, the place where he settles down shall necessarily develop or increase its Magical Aura substantially over time, and this is going to be a rather useful boon for magical immortals.

A note about familiars: it appears that immortal magi are no longer able to sustain their familiars against Acclimation. Even if the familiar may gain immortality this way (here assuming that all magical animals that are interested in the familiar bond are burdened with the Age Quickly Flaw), they need an Aura or vis consumption, although covenant residence might fulfill the effect acclimation-staving method for them, too.

Another very important issue is whether Daimons are free to send their Aspects to earth on their own initative, even in the lack of a summoning through Invoke spells, or a familiar bond. IMO, even if it is not explicitly stated, it is not explicitly forbidden either, so Aspects are free to roam the Earth to fulfill their Daimon's agenda. It's just that such forays earn the Daimon no advancement points, so they are not as profitable as answers to summons.

By the way, since advancement points are just the equivalent of the vis spent in the summoning ritual spell, it appears that they are just another way of expressing learning by vis consumption, a specialized way of doing it like talisman binding. Following this line of reasoning, Aspects could roam the Earth to hunt vis to allow learning for their Daimons. It is not clear, however, whether Daimons could make use of the vis their Aspects forage on earth and bring to the MR to undergo Transformation.

RoP:M established beyond doubt that magical immortals can still make Initiations through Mystery Rituals, even if in most cases magical beings find Virtue development by transformation much easier than mortal beings that are restricted to Initiation (yet another major boon of the magical nature). It also appears that vis consumption can offset the penalty for learning Supernatural Abilities for Gifted magical beings, even if for immortal magi the Arts and Supernatural Ability scores are almost surely so high that developing the related Virtue should be most effective way of learning a new Supernatural Ability anyway.

By the way, we finally have certain rules about what happens to abilities and powers linked to other realms when a mortal becomes a magical immortal: divine ones are lost, faerie ones become magical ones, and infernal ones become False magical ones. Stuff like Faerie Magic and Faerie powers continue to work, while Infernal Powers are upgraded to "mere" taint. Very nice. I assume the same rule woulf work if the mage would become a faerie.

From a cursory review, it appears that again, living-ghostdom is by far the most unappealing way of reaping immortality, while Daimonhood and alchemical immortality contest the prize for most effective method, according to what the magus would value, freedom of action on earth, or safety from destruction (although this judgement impinges on whether Daimons are able to send their Aspect to hunt vis for their advancement, or just to work on their earthly agenda, on their own initiative).

On this line of reasoning, I would point out that an alchemical immortal (or a magical beastie, for that matter) with a (durable) External Soul is almost as indestructible as a Daimon, since Warping is no longer an issue for it. I wonder whether having an external soul would free a Living Ghost from the Haunt survival requirement. I assume that it does, since it is just a powerful mystical binding.

I reccomend you do not mix the rumes for the various Immortal Magi with the rules from RoP-Magic. Compleately different set of circumstances. Immortal Magi are a Mystery, and thus their mechanacal operations are special and unique.

This really does not seem to be the case, since the rules for Daimons and Ghosts in TMRE and RoP:M are closely interlinked, in some cases a direct quote.

I think it depends on whether Immortality is your end goal. If it is, don't use the ROP: magic rules. If you are going to keep playing, then use them. Playing an Immortal should have new problems for the player to deal with, and why make them raw, when the ROP: magic rules are already there?

You nailed it down, and besides, if immortality were truly an end-goal for that character, there would be no real need for the rules on immortal magi in the TMRE Appendix, either.

Sure there are. I may stop climbing the mountain once I've reached the peak, but I still want to know the best route there, and what I will need once I have gotten there, even if it's "off board".

True, but then again, reasoning out how magical immortals work under RoP:M rules fits in the same scope as well.

There is no peak, only resting stops on an endless climb 8) :wink:.

Well, this is not entirely true, there are definite limits to personal improvement, it seems to be unheard-of to have Might above 75-100 in the setting, and the Law of Diminishing Sources and Returns eventually kicks in about raising one's Arts and Abilities higher and higher.

But there are interests and projects that can keep an immortal troupe happily busy for a long, long time, such as organizing the downfall of the Dominion :smiling_imp:, rebuilding the Roman Empire, exploring beyond the known ends of Mythic Europe, completely rewriting magical theory, exploring the infinite depths of Arcadia or the Magic Realm, researching integration projects, etc., plus spending time on creating new items, spells, studying new Abilities, creating new Initiations, Breakthtoughs, etc. An immortal mage has plenty of suitably epic challenges before of him, and calls for his time, even if aging and warping no longer loom. After all, someone needs to do those pesky Hermetic Breakthroughs, sooner or later.

Sure, for some. For me, Immortality is "winning", and it's time to make a new character with different goals.

YMMV. IMO, "winning" would be more like the demigodlike immortal Archmage PCs creating the perfect Hermetic theory, with most or all of the Lesser Limits gone, organizing the Order under their leadership into the enlightened overlords of a unified Mythic Europe, with the accursed Dominion and its pet feudal kingdoms annihilated and having a victory banquet amid the charred ruins of St. Peter.

Anything less than that, is the campaign ending prematurely. 8)


This is a good place to start a campaign!



Combined the books rules seems sensible enough to me, that's how I figured it worked too.

I'd maybe rule that familiars don't have to worry about acclimatising though, as a bonus given from the bond. Probly a bit overpowered for it to work the other way though.

As a verditius, clearly the best route of immortality is to bind your soul into a talismanic automatae! .. .. just as soon as I ever research it >.>

Personally, I'm of the opinion that generally, once you become immortal, they tend to count you as outside the order, though I think you're right in that it's never actually specified that you have to be human.
Would mostly depend on politics to be honest, and maybe how good you are at covering it up. Another question is how much you have to offer.. I mean, if you offered to share your route to immortality, I'm pretty sure you could rustle up some powerful supporters.

One of the bonuses for being immortal is that as far as I've seen, there's still nothing stopping you carrying out further original research. And there's a hell of a lot of benefit to that when you don't have to worry about warping, you can pretty much just churn out as high magnitude research discoveries as you can afford vis wise, more reason for certain people in the order to want to keep you around.

Nice to know. :smiley:

Indeed, that's why I was figuring that the parens-apprentice bond may be a better way to shield from Acclimation for immortal mages. Even if, RoP:M states that by being resident at a covenant, it is assumed that a magic creature generally uses magic on non-magic beings long and often enough to qualify as an effect acclimation shield. This could work for the familiar, too.

That for Verditius, Durable External Soul for the other mages.

Both points are true, and as a matter of fact, immortal mages typically end up as top Mystagogues for their cults, and indeed they are optimal to manage successful Hermetic research. Both ways, they can rack plenty of support in the Order.

I agree.

Personally, I don't accept any argument about the end of a saga and such. If you don't use a magus beyond then, then you don't care at all what the rules say beyond then. The rules for beyond then are for those who do care. So they should make sense for those planning to use them.

The main thing I like about 5th edition is the consistency. Almost everything functions in one of only a few general ways. That makes things a lot easier. I would prefer the same to be true for magical beings. For faeries, it's more limited. I find 3 Becoming rituals -> Faerie Trainer is very clean-cut; Faerie Trainer seems to match what you become extremely well. I'd like the magical versions to be similar. The first of the two steps via alchemy seems to work well in becoming a Transformed Being. Then the second ritual adds Magic Might. This works for me quite well. I'll have to examine the others. I think it's fine for you to also be able to store experience in a talisman; it's like an ability added to the talisman instead of a change in the rules for magical beings. Anyway, as I said, I have to examine these further.

That's not quite how the acclimation rules work, though. Avoiding acclimation comes from the link between the magical being and a non-magical being. Normally the non-magical magus is connected to the magical familiar. That protects the familiar. You could have a magical magus bonded to a non-magical familiar; then the familiar would protect the magus from acclimation.

That would work better. Of course, the familiar is no longer protected from acclimation by the magus.


I agree.

I have not paid so much attention to faerie immortals as to magical immortals since they are less optimal for the kind of character I fancy most, with their serious problems with creativity and innovation. But I suppose you are right. I fully agree about 5th Ed. Yes, alchemical immortality complies well with Transformed Being and RoP:M.

I think Living Ghost does, too, if one assumes the Haunt requirement is the special trick by which the Mystery nullifies the serious limitations that normal ghosts have. Their serious limitations to movement gives them significant troubles to stave Acclimation off, unless they pick a strong magical Aura as their Haunt, or their presence generates one, they have to resort to use effects on non-magical beings or forage vis in possessed bodies, for them retreating to the Magic Realm is not an option. I would let eschew the need for a Haunt if they develop an External Soul, however.

The concordance is very good for Daimons, too, in some cases rules from TMRE are quoted verbatim in RoP:M (alongside repeating a much-needed clarification of the differences between True Names and Synthemata from RoP:I).

True, but I don't believe you can bond a mundane being as a familiar. I think that for magical immortals and their familiars both, they stave off Acclimation by using the other methods: magical Aura residence, periodic retreats to the Magical Realm, periodic use of effects on non-magical beings. First and last methods are very effective if the immortal magus and familiar maintain residence in a covenant, and not too difficult otherwise, since their prolonged residence in any place shall substantially raise the local magic aura, anyway.

Yes. By the way, a very nice bit from RoP:M is that having a powerful familiar shall significantly improve your covenant's aura in the long term, as it shall having an immortal mage.

Wanderer, many of those quotes are misattributed. I don't really care, but some may.

I'm pretty sure there is no requirement that the animal be magical (or faerie or whatever). I've heard the same from others.


I'm not cognizant of what you are referring to. :confused:

I shall need to reread the relevant parts of the RAW, but I seem to remember that the familiar cannot be mundane to start with.

You aren't quoting properly. Look at this last post and your previous post. Several times you have "*** wrote" instead of "callen wrote," where *** is whomever I'd been quoting.


I draw them up as magic characters using the rules from RoP:Magic, and resolve any conflicts using those rules.

What? Well, they are more recent. :slight_smile:

This is a Tribunal issue. I think in the Rhine they are, because it's important for their politics that they can give their votes to proxies. However, generally speaking, I think most magi believe that when a fellow magus stops being human and mortal, he stops being a magus. Probably out of jealousy more than anything else. I'd imagine they legally justify this with the clause "I will not use magic to scry upon members of the Order of Hermes, nor shall I use it to peer into their affairs." If magic is part of your being, you are using it at all times, and if you ever interact with other members of the Order, you are peering into their affairs. Maybe this is why those famous magi rumored to have achieved immortality (Merinita, Bjornaer, Quendalon) disappeared? They are sworn to uphold the Code, but they can't involve themselves in the business of their sodales?

That makes sense to me.

I suggest when playing Daimons that you draw up the Aspect as the character, and leave the Daimon conceptual. Players only ever interact with the Aspect, right? For all game purposes, the Aspect is the character.

For Living Ghosts, I think I disagree that they need to worry about Acclimation. Like for learning, I think the mystery sustains the living ghost in lieu of Acclimation. As long as it doesn't leave its haunt, I think it should be able to survive indefinitely, since that's how the Virtue was written.

Seems logical, although Might doesn't scale the same way. Faerie characters' Might is calculated much differently than magic characters' Might. You're probably better off just drawing up the character from scratch, giving it all the appropriate Virtues and Flaws on top of the ones that describe its faerie role and Glamour and so on.

Agreed - note also that the Aspect(s) are temporary ... the Daimon (off-stage) gains/keeps the basic memories of the Aspect but nothing else. If you Teach an Aspect, all is lost when it return to the Daimon.

On the other hand, the Daimon can create multiple Aspects, and use them free of consequences - it cannot be bound or compelled, nor destroyed by loss of Might, or any of the other perils facing Immortals in the mundane world!

The Daimon can get permanent benefits by persuading mortals to sacrifice stash-loads of Vis to it...

Sadly we didn't have enough page count to introduce an entire new role-playing environment in the "Hall Of Heroes" but it's probably in the Magic Realm somewhere, or in the void between. (ISTR RoP:M had some suggestion?)

I don't remember if it said so explicitly, but I would imagine that they are in an appropriate province of the Twilight Void. I don't have any idea how you'd go about finding them there or even what they do all day, though. :slight_smile: