Immortals' Learning – is there a point without them having a

I'm tempted to say a bit militant at times too -in the sense that even if your YMMV is recognised you seem urgent to also prove that any other way to go about it is somewhat misguided or totalitarian- as this debate very much reminds me of earlier ones about the Dominion and Mysteries respectively, where the lines have been similarly drawn and some of the same arguments repeatedly used. Honestly I think it is positive to experience differences in YMMV - as long as one keeps an open mind to what is the spirit of the RAW and what is personal preference. To often these debates have turned sour over preferences spilling over into heated fight over what is interpretated into RAW or even to the point of harrashing authors for postulated mistakes and/or ulterior motives.

The same issue as the one at hand was debated in the thread on the degree of tyrannical cults started by you and my opinion is still much the same. My personal preferences are still that Mysteries is a toolkit for the Troupe and not for the magus, and that even if the system is openended in the sense that is very versatile, this versatility is not open to characters. That is because I prefer Mysteries to be about stories rather than optimization, and that to me a mystery is at its core about the unknown. To me Initiation is not about a "trade", which to me demeans it, where the cult members "grow dissatisfied and take steps to ensure that Initiation is available by other means". That to me makes too mercantile an exchange rather than being something that is basically much more about passing an ordeal to be accepted as a member of a secluded group. And that is what Mysteries are about to me: a social construction, where albeit important, the gained Virtues mostly are of inferior importance compared to the socio-psycological importance of joining the group in question.

It is no coincidence that I repeatedly use the phrase "to me" in the paragraph above as I see that clearly as a YMMV difference between you and me Wanderer. But changing perspectives to the RAW, a month ago Erik Tyrrell took the time to present the relevant RAW references on this subject and as a follow-up to his discussions with you. I've noticed that you have yet to comment on that thread. This by no means interferes with what you prefer in terms of YMMV, but it does makes a strong case that the RAW at least didnt intend to offer magi the cherry picking of initiations.