Investigating a known enchantment

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

In the rules, there is no bonus for investigating an item for which you have the lab text. Essentially, you want to make sure that the item you have in front of you is the item you expect it to be. This could be useful if you have a secret cache where you are hiding an item for later use, and you are willing to spend a season every 20 years or so to make sure nobody found it and exchanged it for a nasty surprise. It could also be that your paranoid Tremere master charged you with checking that some contingency plan is still in working order. It could also be that you're looting a lab for some perfectly legal reason and you find a bunch of items along with some lab texts. (You can use an item variant of Sight of the Active Magics to check that the Form and Technique are correct, but once you verify that it's a CrIg or PeCo effect like it's supposed to be, do you really want to just try it?)

So let's say your InVi lab total is not quite high enough to find all powers, but you have the lab text used to create the item (you think). I feel this should get you a bonus which is not covered in the rules. What would that bonus be? Double your InVi lab total for the investigation? Make success automatic?

2

I think that is what an InVi specialist is for. Can't take away on of the few things they can do.

You can probably just use spont spells to validate the sigil is yours

W

3

I could see a world where you would get +Mag of the Lab Text, as if it were a Known Spell being used to invent another - although you wouldn't know until you'd finished if what you were holding was doing anything for you, and I think that bonus should only apply if it's the proper thing (so, if you have Secondus' lab texts for a Knife of Wall Cutting, but you're investigating Quintus' Knife of Wall Cutting, you don't get the +Mag.) And it would probably have to be a thing only the storyguide knows for sure, otherwise it would give the game away.

4

If you have the lab text you have all the triggers, conditions, etc. of the enchanted item. Just use the item to see if it matches. Yes, this may be hazardous.

If you don't think it matches the lab text you shouldn't get a bonus because you don't trust the lab text is accurate.

5

No, using an item to find out whether it's your wand of BoAF or whether your enemy replaced it with a deadly trap is not an option.

6

In the case someone analyze the item and have the 'maybe' labtext - I would not give an bonus, if the labtest is the wrong one. Instead i would give the mage, soon after starting the research, the information, that the labtext is wrong - so he knows he search for undocumented effects

7

Just get a Grog to test if it is the item you have a labtext for.
They get paid for a reason.

8

The Core rules say "Your magical sigil figures just as prominently in the effects produced by your
magical enchantments as it does in the effects produced by your spells." So it seems like you have to use the item to be able to investigate the sigil, right?

9

No. The spell to detect a sigil of invested objects would only see the sigil of the invested object. You need another effect to see sigils of magic effects... but since you cast the spell. The sigil will also be visible as any spell you cast but not detected by the effect of your invested object sigil detection spell.

W

10

Do you have a reference for items displaying sigils? I only read that "The sigil also appears in the effects of enchanted devices created by the maga."

11

DE p.252 "Magical enchantments are created through a type of ritual magic..."

All magic has a sigil...

W

12

That's an interesting interpretation.

In the paragraph on DE p.252, it again says only: "Your magical sigil figures just as prominently in the effects produced by your magical enchantments as it does in the effects produced by your spells."

Let's take a look at the InVi guidelines in DE p.366:
"Magic items cannot be investigated with simple magic spells. Investigation requires that you spend at least one season in the laboratory to discover what magic an enchanted item contains (see the Laboratory chapter).
A spell will suffice to tell you that an item is magical, however, and may give you some idea of its powers. Spells will never tell you how to use an item."

Then the amount of information is described for various costs:

  • The base level of a spell to detect magic also gives a fairly good idea of the strength of the magic (within a magnitude).
  • The addition of one magnitude will say whether the effect is Hermetic, and a magus familiar with other types of magic will be able to identify them as well.
  • The addition of two magnitudes will give information about Technique and Form, or nearest equivalent for other types of magic.
  • The addition of three magnitudes gives the rough details of the effect and the sigil of the caster, and reveals whether a Hermetic effect was created by a spell or invested device.

So you would say that this also applies to enchanted items? If you get the sigil, you also get rough details of the effect. Would you detect all effects, or only the least (or most) powerful? If it's not only the east powerful, then investigating enchanted items becomes easier in that you never need to fear that you were not good enough to find all the effects.

The guidelines also say "A spell to detect items will not also detect effects or creatures, and vice versa" and "Magical items have an effective residue magnitude equal to the number of pawns of vis used to open the enchantment" - Because the magnitude does not depend on the effect but on the capacity, I'd be hesitant to give out that information about effects.

13

Yes. Exactly.

I interpret that as long as there is vis in the item, it remains a "fresh" effective residue.

W

14

I'm not convinced. The rules say that the effects of magic items have sigils, not that an item itself has a sigil.

"Every Hermetic maga has a 'wizard’s sigil' All the spells that she casts have something in common, which makes it clear to those who know her that she was the caster. The sigil also appears in the effects of enchanted devices created by the maga." (DE p.224)

15

Look at it in a different way. Why would the Sigil appear in spells and not in the other types of magic that the magi does? Does it appear in the Parma which is a type of ritual magic? Longevity potions? Familiar bond? I think the magi's signature appears in all forms of magic he does and is detectable, with the right effect, like any other supernatural sigils.

W

16

Those are the right questions, and I would answer no to all of them. If your sigil is oranges, do you want your Parma to smell of oranges all the time? Same for longevity rituals, which are active all the time. The way I read it, the sigil only appears in spells (and the spell-like effects of items).

What do you mean by "other supernatural sigils"?

17

You may not want to, but you do. The Sigil is at its height of visibility at the time of the effect being sewn. After that, the Parma/Bond/LR are mostly invisible to the naked eye but effects designed to see/smell them will be able to pick-up the Sigils.

All supernatural things have Sigils. A demon has a Sigil so does the Fey. Their creations will also carry their signature.

W

18

ArMDE tells us that "Some sigils affect the environment where the spell is cast..." "Other sigils affect the maga herself..." " Finally, some sigils affect the actual products of the spell..."

It seems clear that how you detect a sigil and how long a sigil lingers after you cast the spell will be highly individual and not something that a blanket statement will cover. ArMDE goes on to mention that "All kinds of sigil leave some traces behind in the magic, and skilled Hermetic investigators can use this sigil to find out who cast the spell." From what HoH:TL tells us this needs specialized InVi magic to do.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

19

Is this something that's written down in the rules somewhere, or just something you assume? Regarding both your statements.

20

A bit hard to search as the terms vary so much as soon as we're not talking about the standard hermetic sigils. Marks, Signatures, Reflections, etc. but below is a list I could quickly find.

W

Pre-hermetic traditions: Hooks - Mechanica of Heron - Ailuros is a lithe silver cat with sparkling emerald eyes... The sound of a silver wind chime (Celmis' sigil) can be heard when she uses her powers. (Celmi is a Mechanica Mage of the 3rd century and Ailuros is a mechanica cat created by him)

HoH p.75 SIGHT OF THE SIGIL - In the case of Hermetic effects, this spell gives the Technique and Form, the rough details of the effect and the casting sigil of wizard responsible. It can also detect if a Hermetic effect was generated by a spell or invested device. If the effect was non-Hermetic, similar information is provided, but a Quaesitor without knowledge of that sort of magic may not be able to interpret it.

Hedge Magic Revised - Mark - Each folk witch has a mark that reveals an effect as being cast by her. This is similar to a magus' sigil.

Rival Magic - Wizard's Sigils - The Gift expresses itself in a very individual fashion, and one manifestation of this is as a casting sigil. All characters with The Gift and a supernatural Ability, Art, or power produce a sigil when they use their magic, which is akin to a signature. Like the sigils of Hermetic magi (ArM5, page 86), these sigils might affect the environment in which the spell was cast, the wizard herself, or the target of the spell; but they always allow the identification of a cast spell to a specific individual, although it may require magical investigation to reveal a sigil once a spell has been cast.

Rival Magic - Ma'at Zoi Guidelines

Ma'at Zoi incantations measure the spirits, and can be used to gain useful information about ghosts and other incorporeal spirits. Seeing a spirit is relatively easy, although it becomes harder if the sorceress does not know the spirit. To see an unknown spirit, meaning one that is not an Amazon, the sorceress must cast the incantation at Range Unseen Stranger. If such a spirit exists within the scope of the sorceress' vision, it will appear to her.

The Gift can be detected with Ma'at Zoi incantations, as can other supernatural powers that a human target may possess. Ma'at Zoi spells can also detect the personal traces inherent in each sorceress' spells. Magi call these unique identifiers "sigils," while sorceresses refer to them as "reflections of the spirit."

The Cradle & the Crescent - Sahirs "Sigil's" are a signature mark of the Jinn they bind.

The Mysteries revised - "Some spirits may manifest minor effects (similar to a magus's sigil) in the bound spell"