Let's say a Verditius makes an enchanted item and uses only the Verditius magic outer mystery. Would this lab text be usable by anyone other than a Verditius? Would a Verditius be able to translate a lab text for an item that was only in the outer mystery into a format that others could use, perhaps with extra time or effort?
I'm not sure, but I suspect this is done innately, much like Merenita lab texts automatically translate out the faerie magic aspects.
I had this idea too at one point but it was argued out of me. There's no difference between a Verditius lab text and any other magus' lab text. How that magus got that lab total has no bearing on the lab text. Would you say a magus using an apprentice for a bonus in the lab and writes a lab text makes another magus who doesn't use an apprentice in the lab unable to use the lab text?
hth,
Rich
I'd have two assumptions that your SG would need to rule on.
- that a magus will craft an item using their best efforts (mysteries, virtues, special discoveries), unless they declare in advance that they are not using a method.
- that another magus needs the same virtues (or mysteries) to recreate the item. An exception might be Inventive Genius, but that is not really House specific.
Therefore I'd argue that to recreate a Verd item without the same level of mystery or virtues is not possible with a lab text. Essentially the second magus will see explanations of a process, but not know how they work, or how to do them well enough.
Perhaps a house rule could be that the project is automatically an experiment?
That is not my reading. The rules say "In addition to the Shape and Material bonus from its final gross shape, details in the construction give an additional bonus equal to the creating magus’s Philosophiae score" (my emphasis). To me the inclusion of Verditius Runes seems to be very straightforwardly akin to choosing particular Shape & Materials for the item, and thus is something the lab text includes and must be duplicated when the lab text is used.
So for my money - only a Verditius can use the lab text, and he cannot convert it to a non-Verditius lab text.
That's basically what I was thinking. Where the Merinita outer Mystery gives new spell parameters, Verditius would basically reference modiers and methods to get those modifiers that are just not available to most magi.
Now then, I could see (as long as no Inner Mysteries were used), a lab text being translated into what a non-Verditius could use, as long as the Veriditius Magus inventor and/or writer had a high enough lab total to use the intended lab text without the benefits of the Outer Mystery. If so, then the magus could just as easily translate it for others' use. That way their secrets are protected and it represents some extra effort to make the lab text available. And for many Verditius (who would not want to hold back the full power of their Arts) this could be a daunting task both in mechanics (they can pull off a large lab total just with the addition of their Philosophaie and Craft score) and their personal pride; translating the text would mean potentially using a more humble means of inventing it so they could actually translate it. Perhaps doing so could cause the loss of xp in their Hubris trait.
I've always assumed that the Verdi runes are just another form of shape and material bonus, and those need to be the same when using the text. Other than that I see no issue. So yeah, go right ahead if you can get the same shape and material bonus as the verdi go for it! Which means a Verdi needs to make the runes if those got used, AND the Verdi needs a sufficiently high philo score to manage the same runes. Just one more source of income for Verdi!
Remember your lab total includes all the details of your lab. Are you really telling me you must set out your lab EXACTLY how someone else did before you can use their labtext?
No one can do the same than one Verditius, but to me, with Invested Items, it's possible than any can enchants one of them using the lab texts while he got one exact version of the open Item created by one of them, clearly using the bonus than on the AM5 tells that are usefull to any other enchanting. All others can't simply create the magic items while they are enchanting them, they must have it before.
This took a bit of dredging... [url]https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/questions-about-verditius-magic-again/4914/6]
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but the conclusion I draw is that it depends on which virtues the Verditius uses to prouduce the effect. If it just affects the lab total anybody can use it, if it affects the magic itself (in some nonstandard mystery way) then the lab text can't be used by just anybody.
Or something.
Rich
Lab texts describe an Effect, Range, Duration and Targets. If they use anything that affects the effect, range or target that comes from a mystery cult they can't be used by another magus. Otherwise, the goal is to exceed the level of the lab text to determine if you can use it to make the item/spell yourself. There is possibly one exception on the modifications to a lab total that determine whether an item could be made by a magus, and that's the Shape and Material bonus modifier used. It's conceivable that a magus with a lower magic theory wouldn't normally be able to use as large of a shape and material bonus, but it's not something I'm terribly concerned about because the general lack of making items from lab texts I've seen in games I've been a part of.
It's easy enough for me to envision a Verditius simply not adding bits related to Verditius Runes in the lab text, expecting that any other Verditius could figure it out for himself later on[1]. Or it's in code that can only be unlocked with Verditius Lore...
Regardless, the effect is still described, and a recipe of steps on how to get there. If you, another magus, pick up the text and can achieve a similar lab total, I don't see why you can't do it unless it's precluded by a Mystery. On the other side of the equation do we want to say that a Verditius can't use Runes on a lab text he picks up from a non-Verditius, can't use his forge companions?
[1]Or leaving some suggestions to a non Verditius how to do something that doesn't reveal whatever "secret" he used to make the item. After all, after making the item, he knows more than he did going into the process blind.
It's a tough question. I think a decent hand wave might be to just have the Veriditius translate the lab text as normal, but he has to have a high enough lab total to use a 'neutral' lab text of the same item; ie none of the bonuses that the outer mystery provides. That would then scrub the text of Mystery Lore.
Well, he does have a LT in excess, probably far in excess of what's necessary for a neutral text. You need twice the LT to invent it in a season half again as much to invent in two seasons, etc... Only when his LT is really close to the level of the effect is it going to matter, and I could live with it not mattering in that case.
This has particular applications in your new pbp game, that's why I brought it up. I could see a Verditius actually struggling to 'dumb down' the lab text.
I kinda figured this. I'm fine with this happening in the season he spends copying out his lab text stripping the notes. How many things is he going to invent that the final effect is more than half of his lab total. That's going to put a huge crimp on his advancement if he does too much of that. So in that case, he can easily strip out any mystery stuff in the season he's copying out lab notes...
Sounds good, and of course (unless you say otherwise) this would really apply only to the Outer Mystery, not any of the Inner ones. Any item he'd make with the inner mysteries he'd only publish to his House or not at all.
By RAW it depends on if you interpret Verdi runes as being part of the shape and material or not. If it IS then you need an item with the same runes. If its just another special bonus like spell focus then it doesn't go into the lab-text and it can be used with any item. Forge Companions and the bonus for the craft score IMO, should be treated like spell focus. You don't have "spell focus" and "non-spell focus" texts.
I think than only the Verditius Runes are part of the enchantment, that and the saved Vis by the Craft used on the object, only the Verditus can use the Craft bonus to the Lab total by the Crafted alongside the enchantment process, on some extent is said many times tat all other magi must have the object to enchant first, but probably on Forge comanion could be a very usefull, but with the tC&tG rules about Excellent objects.
I have to think that lab texts are not that specific about what has to go into them.
Suppose Magus A wants to make a charged wand that has a DEO effect, and has Pe:5 Vi:9 MT:9 Aura:5 Int:2, Inventive Genius and uses red coral, so he gets +9 for shape and material bonus limited by Mt for a Lab Total of 41. So, he makes a wand that reduces might by 15 and has +52 penetration for a L41 effect.
Suppose Magus B has Pe: 18+3 Vi:9 MT:5 Aura:3 Int:1 and still uses Red Coral. He would have a lab total of 44 and would be able to create 9 of those items using those lab texts. We all agree that the fact that the individual scores are different doesn't keep Magus B from being able to use the lab text of Magus A. So why would the outer mystery of Verditius work any different?
I'm also among those who think a Verditius lab text is like any other lab text. It aids in recreating a magical effect in an enchanted device that must be a) of the same type (lesser vs. greater) and b) have the same shape and material. The latter is clearly something other than "Verditius Runes", as is apparent from the description of Verditius magic in the corebook. I also assume that "same shape and material" allows some level of variation (e.g. two swords might be of somewhat different size, steel quality, ornamentation etc.) or it would be next to impossible to use lab texts for items; I assume it essentially amounts to same shape and material bonus.