playing a shir and looking at learning from a spirit.
does the spirit count as a teacher?
Does the spirit add the +6 single student bonus or the base +3 for teaching?
Can the spirit teach others?
I think the spirit does not get the single student bonus or the base +3 for teaching, the score given is an abstraction: "Source Quality of a Jinni: 3 x magnitude of Might" I think is supposed to represent their total teaching increasing with Might. Does the sahir get a bonus for having Apt Student? I think so, as it represents learning from teaching or training rather than studying vis or a book.
Can the spirit teach others? "A jinni can only instruct a sahir once for each Ability or Art" - I think a jinn can teach a sahir (someone with the Sihr ability), but I don't know if they can teach those with mystical link to jinn.
Sounds reasonable to me.
I think it’s reasonable to have the jinn teach my apprentice that has shir. But not both of us.
If you read HoH:S, jinns seem to be teachers, so Apt Student and teaching would apply. Later books have revised that - TC&TC instead considers jinn sognificatos, so they're akin to studying from vis. In that case, you would not apply teaching & apt student but you would apply study bonus and free study. Even if you use the later - some jinns may be able to teach as part of a bargain as well.
My answer was based from HoH:S p136, with two quotes from that page.
Tc&Tc p71 "As creatures of embodied magical power, all jinn, regardless of Realm alignment, can act as sources of study, akin to the observation of magically occurring phenomena referred to by Hermetic magi as significatos (Covenants, page 101). Each individual jinni acts as the equivalent of a tractatus on a single appropriate Hermetic Form (typically an elemental Form for Magic jinn, Imaginem for Faerie jinn, and Vim for Infernal jinn), the Accelerated Ability Sihr and their aligned (Realm) Lore. The jinni does not teach the summoner, nor does it need to possess a score in the relevant Art or Ability, as it is the summoner’s observation of the Essential Nature of the jinni rather than the jinni’s knowledge that is the key. The summoner may only gain the benefit for one Ability or Art per season. To gain the benefits of study, a sahir or other summoner must coerce a jinni or jinniyya into service for a whole season."
It also gives the same source quality formula. The rules in Cradle & Crescent make it explicit they act as significatos. Therefore, as a significatos which you could study multiple things from, you could instruct the jinn to teach your apprentice, but that would take up a season of its time in which it is not helping you.
So it’s still might divided by three in the newer books?
Apt student does not apply?
According the rules in The Cradle & The Crescent, it's not teaching so Apt Student doesn't apply. It's still magnitude x 3 for source quality. My reading was based on the older book.
I appreciate that, I am looking at the rules in covanants on significatos.
Normally significatos would be stress die plus aura for the study total?
Does this mean there is an aura modifier or any other modifier added to the study total?
also, does the level of the jinn count as vis spent like other significato? Meaning a level 15 jinn can only be useful to an art score of 15 and below?
I suppose I’ll have to use apt student some other way.
I think it is important to pay attention to whether something is an 'advancement total', or 'source quality', or 'experience', or something else. The rules for advancement can be pretty fiddly, and keeping this stuff straight helps
I think the rules on significatos in covenants tell you how to determine the source quality of a normal significatos -- but spirit teachers have their SQ determined in a different way.
That makes sense. I’m reading through tC+tC and the main question I have, at this point, is the spirit guides knowledge limited the same way studying from vis is.
Signafacatos count as vis(might divided by 5) for study. Meaning a might 20 signafico would count as 4 vis for study. Meaning it would allow you to study an art at 20 or below.
or is a different?
Do any virtues add to this study total?
Thanks in advance
does the spirit count as a teacher?
There's no reason a spirit couldn't teach, providing they have the skills that is desired to be taught. In addition to this Covenants pg 102 explicitly lists spirits as potential teacher for Hermetic Arts indicating they may be able to teach magical Arts and abilities they personally lack.
Knowledge-based libraries use the
teaching rules rather than the book study
rules. They are purchased using the cov-
enant creation guidelines for teachers. An
example of a knowledge-based library is
found at the Cave of Twisting Shadows ,
where the ghosts of Criamon magi teach
visitors their Arts. Spirits, demons, faeries
who learned them from humans, familiars
that outlived their masters, and — accord-
ing to myth — angels can also teach the
Arts in this way.
A GM may extend to this to sahirs and their solomonic arts.
The spirit both adds +6 for single student and can teach others provided they have the skills being taught- once again a GM may extend this to solomonic arts.
An additional consideration is a sahir whom bargained the use of a Grant (virtue) power be done on themselves(and this is indicated to be common through both lore texts and author commentary) may well experience the power as being taught to apply their solomonic magic in an entirely new way or such.
These rules are for studying jinn, rather than being taught by them
As creatures of embodied magical
power, all jinn, regardless of Realm align-
ment, can act as sources of study, akin to
the observation of magically occurring
phenomena referred to by Hermetic magi
as significatos (Covenants, page 101). Each
individual jinni acts as the equivalent of
a tractatus on a single appropriate Her-
metic Form (typically an elemental Form
for Magic jinn, Imaginem for Faerie jinn,
and Vim for Infernal jinn), the Acceler-
ated Ability Sihr and their aligned (Realm)
Lore. The jinni does not teach the sum-
moner, nor does it need to possess a score
in the relevant Art or Ability, as it is the
summoner’s observation of the Essential
Nature of the jinni rather than the jinni’s
knowledge that is the key. The summoner
may only gain the benefit for one Ability
or Art per season.
Edit: Ah sorry, I didn't realise it was already covered this isn't teaching.