Many of the people on the board (the ones I've been talking to) are unhappy with Twilight and Enigmatic Wisdom. After some thought, it seems to me the cleanest way to make Enigmatic Wisdom "more useful" is this : Have Enigmatic Wisdom subtract from the "extra" die of warping points you get, while allowing it to be added to the total when figuring out what you got from Twilight. Nobody seems too happy with that extra "kick" of warping anyway, now there's a way to deal with it. So if you are strong in Enigmatic Wisdom, you go into Twilight more often, but get fewer warping points from it, and get "better" stuff from the episode. I think it would be a good explanation for the fact that Crimon are not mentioned in canon as having a much shorter "Life/Warp" span. And now, your thoughts.
Criamon IMS WANT to cross the boundary. The idea that in their quest to cross the threshold they take longer to do so seems unduly harsh. Now, a player might want to live longer but why play a Criamon if the void is not your ambition?
I had thought about doing just that. After all, in previous editions, EW did subtract from Twilight Points. But things work differently in this edition. If EW worked as you describe, I'd consider it a major virtue, and perhaps even too good for that. It's simply too good as described, making EW the essential virtue for making Twilight irrelevant.
I have never been happy with Twilight either as a mechanic or concept, not since it was introduced in a 2ed supplement. But Twilight, to many people, is essential. I prefer the existing mechanic to what you describe. Indeed, I find the AM5 Twilight mechanic to be the best and most reasonable of any edition, even elegant. Getting rid of Twilight entirely, or revising the concept entirely (because YR7 is dead right about the effects of "your magus is gone for 7 years" on most sagas), might be more elegant still.
This is your vision of House Criamon. According to Mystery Cults, final Twillight is their ultimate destination, but it does not mean they want to rush it. There are several exemples given where a elder Criamon which reached the ultimate station of a path stay behind to help the House or finish unaccomplished business, even staying behind for centuries. It contradicts with the fact that having a high EW rush them to final twillight faster.
In our Saga we have a Criamon who is mainly into Imaginem and has a twisted mind (he sees plans within plans within plans) and not at all into Enigmatic stuff ... in fact, he looks like a Tremere :mrgreen:
Ovarwa, I don't understand how this would make Twilight irrelevant. If you had a big botch and got 8 Twilight points, nothing is going to "get rid" of them. All this does is calm down the simple die "kicker" you get after the Mechanics. If you had an Enigmatic Wisdom of 5, your range would be 8 warping points to 13 warping points, as opposed to 9 warping points to 18 warping points to those without. I'm not seeing the grossness. What are you seeing? What am I missing?
Restless Kaiser, there is a CrVi spell that gives you two warping points. Anyone who wants to ride the Twilight roller-coaster is going away faster then an Alcoholic running a bar. In canon, acting like a Magic Junkie is probably not considered "Apt action"........
This is not something the character would know is happening. The Player would. In canon, Crimon are supposed to get more Twilight episodes but come out of them better. This seems to me to be a simple and clean way to make the skill fit the description, which it does not do now.
I do understand your intent. And if you had a big botch with 10 million Warping Points, I realize that your suggestion wouldn't get rid of those either.
But it is far more likely to face Twilight because of two or three Warping Points rather than your straw man (or mine). In the typical situation, say, with a double botch and a simple die, a Criamon with EW5 or EW6 gets to ignore most of the Warping Points that some other magus would face.
Do you really not see this?
Yes, I see it. But Twice as much Twilight with half the Warping Points evens out. There's no mention in canon that Crimon "Leave" before any other Houses as a rule. Enigmatic Wisdom is a flaw in that it makes Twilight more likely without any protection against Final Twilight. I like Twilight and Crimon. That doesn't mean I want them to Die young and leave a good looking corpse. I don't want to throw out the engine (as getting rid of Twilight would do), I just want a simple, balanced solution to what I see as a flaw.
The "twice as much" statistic is something you are making up. Made up. Completely not reflecting the data. The "half the Warping Points" is accurate for a Criamon with EW5 and a Twilight brought on by 2WP.
But you either miss or pretend to miss how best to use your version of the virtue: Don't stop at EW5. Go for EW8 or better. The ultimate prize comes at EW10 (or EW9 with a specialization in Twilight) when Twilight no longer ever increases Warping. At that point, what Criamon will bother to try avoiding Twilight? Except at a Warping Score of 10, it won't pull him out of the world any sooner; it's all upside.
And yeah, this involves spending xp on EW. But Criamon magi are likely to do this anyway, since your virtue is very good and initation leverages EW further.
If you are just pretending to miss this point, you already get what I'm about to suggest. But if you really did miss it, here is something to consider: The value of a proposed game feature is best represented by how it can be used most effectively. Thus, before proposing a virtue it is necessary to figure out how it can be used. Some good uses of the virtue will still be missed, but the place of virtue in a game will be better understood.
Leveraging a virtue is not 'extreme' or 'abusive'; it reflects what real people do in real life, to use what they've got.
Certainly the "twice as much" is a WAG. As to "best" using my version of the virtue, having players increase their EW is something to encourage. It's a Supernatural trait that a House is built on. Should be cooler then it is now. But as to your second point, you are still getting Warping points, that's how you go into Twilight, yes? If your focus on Twilight is more Warping, then you are right. But it doesn't seem to be the focus in canon, or on this board, where it has been discussed, and the general consensus seemed to be that the extra simple die of Warping should not be in the Rulebook, and was a case of bad editing. This seems to be a good compromise, especially since in canon the Crimon will teach Enigmatic Wisdom to anyone who asks. They are not very mysterious for a Mystery Cult.
It didn't need to be a WAG.....
I read this and think, "this fellow has either not read what I wrote about the effects of his proposed virtue, has not understood it, or has chosen to deliberately ignore it."
By the way, I have seen too few postings on this topic to suggest the existence of any 'general consensus' of the kind you suggest. Especially not 'bad editing'. I'm pretty sure that after a few years and reprintings and errata, the Twilight rules say what they mean.
Doesn't have to be a WAG? I'm not sure how you would codify "Warping is to be avoided at all costs!" vs." Meh. Twilight happens.".
Certainly I have read what you have wrote. I'm not sure I understand you, given that you seem to be more comfortable with getting rid of the whole Twilight section then you are in a selective reduction in Warping points for a House that specializes in Twilight. Getting rid of Twilight and the purpose of House Crimon seems extreme to me.
As to the Twilight Rules, look up the thread "Warping Points and Twilight Effects". Given that this board is very good about arguing both sides, there was very little said in favor of that "simple die". The best case for it seemed to be "It's in the Rules and We're stuck with it....". Thus my suggestion for a House Rule, by definition, not canon.
Aren't some (most?) of the "powers" that Criamon get as they advance along their chosen path things that are rolls or bonuses based on the character's Enigmatic Wisdom Score?
Granted, Enigmatic Wisdom is not very useful for non-Criamon, but its not called "Practical Wisdom" for a reason.
Oh, sure. It's just Enigmatic Wisdom is unique, in that you can get it "forced" on you as a Benefit of Twilight (which started much of this train of thought. I got 22 exp from a Twilight episode, started thinking about what it meant for me.). Just seems wrong that a merit everyone can get forced on them is so bittersweet. Magic Sensitively is the other "merit" that is really a flaw for mages. Get nothing you can't do with InVi, but lose Magic Resistance. It's one thing if you choose it, another to have it chosen for you.
I for one am perfectly happy with the way things are as is, and I don't know of many people at all that are unhappy with Twilight and Enigmatic Wisdom. Except for you (and maybe Ken, who wants to rewrite the entirety of the rules ), I have never heard anyone complain about or criticize them.
I am dissatisfied with the rapid accumulation of Warping thogh. IMS, I raised the "powerful magic" threshold to at least seventh magnitude, and even then I often ignore it.
- the "base" dice botches are THREE not one botch dies.
- auras add die botches, but the ASG do NOT apply the "magical aura don't add die botche to magi (faerie for Faerie Magic etc)).
=> so, we go a lot in twilight (but for a times, it's lesser because we have more formulaic/masteries/familiars)
We do NOT add a simple die to the warping points won to decide the effects.
So, "many" twilights, but "lesser" ones.
And, for my own magus (last, not current), i had 3 experiences of twilight (in 3 "boss times"...) which were 2 good (+4px in MT *2 ) and 1 bad (losing the wound that weeps... in which i had 1 mastery ), all that before age 40.
Well Mr. Faulkner. You prove my point, as does ExarKun. Everyone has a little something to deal with the Warping points. I just think it's better to make them earn it "in game", and Enigmatic Wisdom seems the best start-point for that.
Thass me! Not an entire rewrite. But I definitely like tinkering. Were my mods better received, I'd probably devote quite a bit of time to a writing a set of consistent changes.
YR7 has, among others.
I like having magi live longer, and I like game rules that encourage them to go out and do stuff. Oddly enough, however, I consider the Warping rules particularly elegant, a neat bit of game design. These rules do exactly what I am quite sure the designers set out to accomplish. They didn't want magi stacking spells on themselves, and walking around like that all the time, so doing so inflicts Warping. They wanted magi to think carefully about tossing powerful spells at other people, so that Warps too. (We could probably do away with that one, though; I think it's the least integral to the architecture of Warping and longevity.) And so on.
YR7's objection (as I understand it) is not about Warping, however, but Twilight, and cuts to the heart of the problem. If a magus goes Twilight for 10 years of game time, the player has to write up a new magus. If a magus goes Twilight for a season during a 3 session adventure, he can perhaps play some grogs and not be completely benched, but if that was the only magus on the adventure, or one of the few, the GM almost always ends up fudging (and then lies about it even to himself) to prevent a TPK. The idea that old magi don't die but just fade away is a good one, yet "you get all the consequences of a double botch and your character is AWOL for the rest of the adventure" strikes me as too old-school, and not in a good way. I think a new vision for Twilight is in order.
I agree with this.
As I see it the problem is not so much the idea of twilight or even really the rules for them, it is just that it has the potential to kill the game if religiously applied to player characters.
This is the reverse of the arguments about research breakthroughs that pop up from time-to-time. In those arguments the problem is that if the rules which are good for player characters (and allow them to make breakthroughs) are applied to the whole Order of non-player characters, it then looks like research breakthroughs should happen more often in the Order's History than they do in canon. With Twilight, rules that actually work quite well when applied to whole Order of non-player characters have the potential to be too traumatic when applied to player characters.
I don't have any good or easy solutions for this, but I think that this is the central issue. Sometimes, what works well for a few player characters is a bit silly when applied to the whole Order, and vice versa.
Really, I think the system works just fine now. There might be a problem in campaign with Story tellers being a little tight with raising Confidence scores. If I am reading it right, you can spend confidence points on the roll to comprehend Twilight, which will "count" when it comes time to figure out how long you spend in Twilight. Done right, that 7 + stress die years can be reduced to seconds, if you have the confidence points, which come from stories. So this is where the stay at home lab rats lose out, and the dynamic players who take a few risks get ahead. And it fits Canon quite nicely.
My little house rule concept is a response to Original Research, which is wonderful, but gives us something I don't think the Twilight system was really designed for, "Scheduled Twilight". It's one thing for the occasional "Surprise" on the road, it's another for it to happen 3 -4 times in two "off" years. That "extra die" can really add up. I thought it would be nice to give players a way to control it some, while not getting rid of Twilight.