Library convertion

How do i convert the library from the 3rd edition to the 5th edition?

We will play in Lux ex Tenebris, and i need to convert it's library (Lux ex Tenebris comes in the Twelfth Night adventure... the Library is in the page 55)

Any ideas?

Salvete, Sodales!

Well, I don't own 12th NIght so I can't help you on the specific library, but I have just done the same for a Triamore campaign, so I can at least give some advice on a general procedure - mind me, no official rule, just my way of dealing with this, as the 5th ed. authors didn't even try to make covenant conversion rules.

One warning ahead: This will be work!

Spells are the easiest thing, as there is no general reason to change them, at least not more than for the spells your magi use. Some might be incompatible with the new rules, some might have different requisites or another level, but generally everything remains the same. If your magi make use of text-casting unknown spells, you have to convert some of the spells (which are lab-notes and help to learn/reinvent the spell) to casting tablets (which aren't helpful in learning the damned thing but the only way to cast it without first learning it).
It gets more complicated with books on abilities and arts. But somewhere in the stats for your library there are probably stats for the points spent on mundane books as well as the points spent on hermetical books. Both should be relatively high fugures, some hundred at least but possibly more than 1000. Cut these numbers in half, and you get the build points needed to create a comparable 5th ed. library. I based this on the ratio of point costs for summae in the 4th ed. to point costs for summae in the 5th. That was the easy part. Now you have a look at your 4th ed. summae, take into account how good you considered them to be and compare this to the 5th ed. levels for books (cf. covenants page 94 & core rules, p. 71). Authorities and Libri Quaestinum from 4th ed. don't exist any longer, and the rules for tractati have been changed somehow, but generally you can probably keep the later ones as they are, perhaps adjust their levels if they are too outrageous (or really horrible). AUthorities I would convert to high level, low quality summae and LQs to tractati.
If you do this, players will still be able to recognize their old library, but this will most certainly result in the problem that your library might eat up more than half of your covenant's building points.

I hope I could help you.

Alexios ex Miscellanea

4th? He´s talking about 3rd ed.. Not that i have a clue if they use similar rules, waaay too long since i read anything of 3rd ed..

Another option, rate summaes as ok, good, great. Give those ratings base qualities at 10, 15, 20.
Roll a 6 sided dice for each, 1 -1q, 2 -2q, 3 or 4 no change, 5 +1q, 6 +2q.
Gives a bit of variation but keeps the books at their basic original value.

3rd edition didn't have individual book stats. You simply had a Library with a bunch of scores in various Arts and Abilities, no idea how they were used, and a modifier to Research rolls. 4th to 5th is a pretty easy conversion. Going from 3rd though, that's a bit of a challenge. Rough guess, I would say take the score in each category, split it between Level and Quality, and call it a summa. Repeat for each score in each catergory.

A simple conversion would be to convert each score in the third edition library to a summa of equal level ad quality to the third ed source. this keeps the effect of the source the same but it stretches believability.

I think hat choosing a collection of summa and tractatus that allow a character to gain the same level (total xp) as the third ed source would be a more faithful representation of the in character source.

Salvete, Sodales!

Ah, sorry I missed this. :blush: Ok, I don't have any experience with this (from 3rd e. I only own the tribunal books, Maleficia & Pax Dei), but this were the conversion rules from 3rd to 4th edition:

This makes for a boring library but should basically work for a conversion from 3rd to 5th as well - jest keep the general range of levels in mind.

Alexios ex Miscellanea

First edition I played was 4th, but I do have 2nd edition, and that's where I learned the rules. 3rd edition was one I mostly skipped.

IIRC 3rd ed and back had books on Arts (and Abilities) rated only for their level. Plus they used 'full level advancement' only, for book study, That is, not tracking the loose exp seperatelt, just the level advancements. Study totals were as this: If the Level of book is 3x your level or more, gain 3 levels. If it's 2x your level, gain 2. If it's just higher than your level, gain 1 level. 4th ed features some simple rules for converting 3rd (and previous editions) to 4th. Simply have the books become Summae, with Level equal to old level, and Quality equal to half level. The same should apply for 3rd to 5th, since 4th and 5th use pretty much the same rules in this respect. I don't think the limits to what level a magus can write about has changed, it has always been 1/3 own Level.
However I would try and look at how Quality is calculated in 5th ed now, and then judge what qualities are realistic. After all, the low level Summa would get incredibly low qualities, if simply using ½level.

Thank you ultraviolet, i will do what you sugested.. it is a good idea =)

Also, try to make minor changes to qualities, to flesh out the books. I mean, if the library has 8 Summa all level 6 quality 3...that's too low quality. Make sure low level books have adequate Quality, by looking at the 5th ed standard formulae for this. It's Com+6 for summa, right? I know Covenants expand on this, and say it's Com+3, with +1 for each of good binding, uterine vellum and illumination. And the all-time favourite wild card: Good Teacher. It's this one in 5th ed which gives +3 book quality (as well as teaching), right?

Also, quite boring if all 8 books have the same quality - even if it's the "right" one. Vary qualites by -1 to +2 or +3 over this "standard", just for flavour. Assign small descriptive phrases to signify this: damage, resonant materials, coloured inks. And perhaps go a step further, and define what the damage is: missing pages, singed corners, bite marks, splotches of blood...

WGRE for 4th ed had a great (IHMO) section about books and Physical Quality - which was kept seperate from (text) Quality. The Scribe ability also affected the Quality of books, but a Dex+Scribe roll high enough gave "Clear Script", for a further bonus, however it could result in a penalty for poor script as well. Also modifiers for good or bad vellum and inks, for spacing and for illustrations and illumination.
I was working on a system, based on this, for 5th ed, but with a slightly more systematic approach. Also I'd like to get rid of the rolls involved, to avoid too much random factor. It's a work in progress, and at least a year since I've even looked at it.

I actually like the 5e treatment (in Covenants) better - simpler mechanically, while preserving great information about the texts, inks, and so on. I don't like all the book-related rules there, but the idea to break down the core's (Com+6) to (Com+3+1 to 3 for craftmanship, and assume it's +3 for any self-respecting covenant) is a good one IMO. Resonant materials are also brilliant, although I'd skip the +2 and +3 options there.

Sure, Covenants has a much simpler system. But what I don't like, is how these rules say this is included in core rules, per default. While the 4th ed WGRE added these things on top of the core rules. They also had the similar system for substandard materials, work, damage etc. How many players, when converting from 5th ed core to Covenants extra rules during a saga, suddenly lower the qualities of their books? One might assume self respecting covenants have alle these +3 from workmanship. But did all your books, from the start have this? All those volumes gifted to the new covenant from the old masters were propably not the most valuable ones. All those books written by the freshly gauntleted magi wouldn't be that good, it'd be too expensive.

I will take a look at the 5th ed covenants (i have it yeay =P) =)

I love 5th edition, but there are a few things I thought that 4th did better. The WGRE book rules are an example. However, when I converted my Libbrary, I did lower quality in some cases and boosted it in others. Some books don't have "well illustrated", a few are "flap bound", and etceteras. I even add a rating for damage/age that lowers the quality. However, most of these books are by extremely good authors. My opinion is that it is the Good Teachers whose books are passed on from generation to generation. Others write vanity texts that may e popular for a few years when the first come out, but fail to attain the status of "classic"

One of the things I dislike in supplements is power-creep. It is unavoidable, but I really do appreciate the fact that the +6 got split into +3+craftmanship, greatly reducing the power creep in the Quality of books.

Granted, conversion will probably often not include lowering qualities, but really it's that's up to the troupe. I can certainly see converting a library and lowering the quality, to have more fun books and a more realistic library. It depends on the players - I don't find it outlandish, and at any rate I don't think that's a major consideration. If the rules function well on their own but don't tend to get applied much during conversion - that's not a biggie for me.

Also, granted, Covenants is big on the power-creep in other areas. Laboratory specialization especially - but that's so cool it's entirely worth it, IMHO. But even with books, the various Quality-increasing options induce some power-creep.

I certainly see your points about power-creeping. hadn't thought about it, but will from now on.

Looking at core 4th ed and the changes come WGRE, there definately was some power-creeping. But I really liked the fact, that all these bonus elements weren't separate and additive boni. They were "purchase points" for "buying up" physical quality, and not all books had the same 3 elements. In time, damage or wear and tear might start to affect the quality. And the magi could consider doing some repair work, to pep the old tomes up again.
I'm endlessly fascinated with the way illustrations, colour use and aesthetical quality of writing and script affects books. But it depends on how much you want to micro-manage it.

I also at some point considered using not only the author's Com, but also his Scribe and/or Artes Liberales. The 'Good Teacher' is just and either-or option, while the Ability based calculation leaves more open for variation. Also more open for abuse!

For basic summae, what we use is Write Quality= Com+6+Bonus+(Teaching+Art.Lib.+Philosophiae/4 round down).
The reasoning being that Teaching adds ability to write a better text for conveying information overall, A.L. adds better ability to write with proper grammar, avoid questionable choice of words or accidentally create multimeaning wording, structuring the book well etc etc and Philosophiae is "knowing the basics of the world" making it easier to write in relation to reality, make references and again better convey the information(essentially having a baseline to go from).

It also means that while a character CAN raise their write quality quite alot, its very costly in XP to do so, which reduces the problem with potential abuse. Getting a bonus from this at +6 is certainly possible for most characters, even as high as +9 can be for real, especially as some XP will be spent on those abilities anyway, but... such focus will not go unnoticed as the amount of XP needed will still be massive.
Fittingly though a character with great teaching, linguistical ability and general world knowledge will be a far better writer than than they would otherwise be.

I favor the return of the "Strong Writer" Virtue. The Quality Bonus that it had is now incorporated into Good Teacher, so drop that. Instead, keep the faster writing speed, and allw a Strong Writer to compose a summa that is up to two-thirds the level of his Arts or Ability. Which does give you more wiggle room to increase Quality by writing at a lower level, but it operates according to a different mechanic and can e combined with Good Teacher.

Going way off topic

I also liked the 4th ed way of having Good Teacher and Strong Writer split up. And how Strong Writer not only let you write better books (bonus to quality) but also made you write and copy faster (more levels).
Balance-wise in 5th ed, a HR splitting them up again, needs to add something to Good Teacher, if taking the writing-part away. Perhaps if it covers Training as well as Teaching. So both academic, knowledge abilities, as well as as practical skills.
But I wouldn't include in Strong Writer, that the writer can write to higher levels than half. I'd make a new Virtue - call it "Increased understanding" (like the 4th ed Good Twillight Effect). Either make it 2/3, but for a limited number of art/abilities. Or somewhere in between ½ and 2/3.

My advice is don't do it! Tinker with your Library rules, change what you don't like, increase or decrease the number of xp per season (to speed or slow the rate of power growth) to your taste. I absolutely HATE the 4th ed. library rules, it's the most boring crap I've ever heard of. If you like the added Latin flavor then by all means call your tomes summae and tractati and whatnot, but I think the whole thing went the wrong direction by making the game more complicated.

I only say this because I have a big aversion to sitting down for hours doing all kinds of math and keeping track of charts instead of playing the game and getting into character. Reading these responses makes me dizzy with the "reduce quality -1 to -3 for summae" and "tractati with 3-6 quality and level 2-5 blah blah blah". Just my opinion.

There's much to be said for simplicity in rules, but the application of books in fifth ed is simpler than in any previous edition.

Third ed: If you are studying an art,determine the ratio of your art score to the level of the book. If the ratio is <1/3 gain three levels, if the 1/3> ratio>1/2 then gain two levels, if 1/2>ratio>1 then gain a level.
If you are studying an ability you can use a book if the ability is a knowledge but not if it is a talent and probably not (if I remember correctly) if it is a skill. You use this book to justify your annual experience point award which is dependent upon how well you roll for being diligent and how many seasons you've spent doing other things.

fifth ed: get experience points equal to book quality.

So do switch the mechanics,

Also give your books titles and histories if they're important to the game. so many times my games have been improved by having books with histories and connections to previous stories we've told. The ambiguous source quality in editions 1-3 made this a little difficult because individual books didn't line up with individual game mechanics. It'll help you get into character rather than just sitting down and doing math.