Longevity Ritual

Hello, here my question for you.
A magus with a longevity ritual level 30 who is in effect during 10 years. Now his lab total in Creo Corpus is level 40.
Did the magus had to wait the end of his longevity ritual to cast another one (aging crisis)
or did he could remplace the ritual level 30 with a ritual level 40 ?
Thanks all

I'd certainly allow a player in one of my games to cast the second ritual before the first has expired from an aging crisis. If they've worked hard to get their arts high, I like to let them enjoy it.

I'll ask here a tangential question, that might put the original post in a broader perspective:

How can a Longevity Ritual be dispelled, other than forcing an aging crisis? Since the Longevity Ritual is an ongoing magical effect, it seems it should amenable to dispelling via Perdo Vim... but it's not clear whether it should be a Ritual, or not (I'd say it should) and whether it should fall within "Hermetic Corpus magic" or be its own specific type of magic that requires its own (possibly Ritual) version of Unravelling the Fabric of <...> (I'd say the former).

I'd say it acts like any other generalized effect that can be cast at multiple levels - you can cast it again, but you only gain the benefit of the most powerful one. However....if you have 2 of them cast on you, do you gain double the warping? And when you do have an aging crisis, which one prevents it?

With that in mind, I'd say you can, but you'll need to dispel the old one, or else you've got 2 continuing effects on you. If that's the case, then you'll gain the bonus from the more powerful one, but if an aging crisis goes off, the older one will resolve it first. So, a slight benefit, I suppose.

And to answer Fafnir's questions - I'd say it's certainly a Hermetic corpus ritual, and as such can be dispelled like one. Really - is there any reason for it not to be? The only thing I can think of is that you can't use someone else's Longevity ritual - that implies that it's not QUITE as integrated into Hermetic Theory as one might hope. But outside that, it seems to fall pretty solidly into a set of combined Creo Corpus guidelines, as a continuing magical effect. Oh - I suppose that the implied "resolve an aging crisis" isn't quite integrated fully either, as in theory a magnitude 1 Longevity ritual can cancel out an Aging crisis. So...not as integrated as I originally thought.

Hm. With that in mind, I'd say it's as unique as Parma - which requires it's own version of Unravelling the Form: "Hermetic Longevity" would probably be the category. However, both would be caught up in a generalized Antimagic effect.

I'm ok with your point Kevin. Need to end the old ritual before cast another one.

Or, as the original part of it is actually a lab activity (only renewing it is done as a ritual spell), perhaps it works like other odd lab activities? Familiar Bonds can be upgraded. Talismans can be opened further.

Well, it's a Hermetic lab activity. Do you allow non-ritual ending of Familiar Bonds, Talisman bonds, or magic items? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I see a lot of reason for it not to be as well. But perhaps the most compelling thing for me is that I don't think it should entirely collapse when entering a foreign Aegis of the Hearth.

Nothing in canon suggests the old one needs to end before a new one begins. I can't find it and I'm away from my books but I think there are examples of magi reperforming their longevity rituals in canon.

I usually interpreted the lab activity part as creating the ritual - at which point you get a free casting out of it, at the end. Once you have the lab notes, you can re-cast it ritually whenever you feel like it. Also, I was under the impression that Aegis suppressed continuing effects, rather than collapsing them. That being said - if that's the case, then yes: I agree with you. Such a limitation would probably be mentioned somewhere, if that was the case. (Although suppression may not be - how often do magi live in someone else's aura without having a casting token?)

The vis limit on the creation is the vis limit for a lab activity and has nothing to do with your Arts, so your Arts could be far too low to pull off the ritual with the vis you use and so you may be able to make a ritual you cannot cast. This would indicate that the initial creation is not followed by a ritual casting.

The actual wording is "fizzles out," which isn't very technical but usually implies an ending:

I would expect, in the case of Redcaps, it may well happen relatively frequently.

Ah, interestingly, if you have a longevity ritual you don't like because it's flawed (from experimentation), you can make a new one that "overrides" it. Still, "overrides" can be a little vague, and it's only written explicitly for flawed rituals. But this does suggest new rituals probably override old ones as if they didn't in general, there would be no good reason for it to work in this case.

Ah, good catch. It's on p.108, third column, of the core book.
I agree that the text strongly suggests that a new ritual effectively dispels the old one.

But how can a magus know that his longevity ritual is flawed before it fails?

Your skin is green after performing the ritual and wasn't before, you are in excruciating pain after performing the ritual and weren't before,... There are lots of possibilities within "Side Effect" and "Modified Effect" that could be noticed.

Yep. It is indeed extremely unwise to experiment with Longevity Rituals.

But unwise is the middle name of many a magus: see MoH p.20 for Aurulentus.


Aurulentus didn't experiment with Longevity rituals.

Didn't he?

Aurulentus got thoroughly errataed - but not about this.


I'll give you that point. He did not experiment on himself. Nor did he really experiment as defined in the rules for experimentation in the core rule book. Instead, his experimentation was within the context of Original Research. So, I'll stand by my assertion, he didn't experiment with longevity rituals, with the qualification, as defined by the rules for experimentation within the Ars Magica 5th Edition text.

That's oh so big a difference. And unwise still.

To experiment "within the context of Original Research", by

So this is experimenting "as defined in the rules for experimentation in the core rule book", and just as dangerous and unwise if Longevity Rituals are involved.

Just don't try to introduce utterly irrelevant 'distinguo's here!


I'm bored with you now. Have a nice day.

For which you can blame yourself. 8)

You too.