One thing that came up in another thread that applies here as well is that your "Free" House Virtue must match your Parens' "Free" House Virtue. In this case, Carmen's virtue is Puissant Aurum, which means that Lucien's would have to be that as well. And it's worth pointing out that as a weather magus, most of what she teaches Lucien will probably be weather-related, so you may want to reconsider the Mythic Blood and Affinity.
Well bugger! Hmm ok. I'll have to rework. And I think I'll hold off that rework until we find more of the implications of using the new rules.
But I don't understand how that makes sense from a wider lore perspective. All magi in Carmen's line had the same free house virtue? Doesn't ring true. I didn't want an apprentice to be a v2 of Carmen. Where is the value in that?
Think of it this way; how can she teach you to have Puissant Ignem, when she doesn't have it?
Beyond that, yes in a sense your parens is teaching you to be like them, because that's the only thing they know how to teach. You can of course have your own interests besides that, but the free virtue you'll get is what they have, because that's what's integral to their style.
So Flambeau himself had Puissant Auram? Carmen's line goes straight back to the founder.
I've (briefly) been a teacher. I was able to facilitate education on topics for which I am not an expert. And a teacher who can only impart his own values and skills is not very useful.
Not everything is taught - so many things are built into the student. All the meta virtues and flaws could be seen to be inbuilt in the gift. All the Master has to do is recognise it and encourage is growth.
Ars has become mechanically driven to justify every micro step, but with those rules the Order would have almost no diversity at all.
I know this isn't RAW but I'm really suspect on RAW in these circumstances.
Marko- I'll hold on introducing Lucien in 1240ish. Forcing Carmen to study teaching to give my character a fighting chance, plus the ideas from raw mean that I'm not rushing this character.
Prefer to introduce a Magus now.
In other words, the house virtues can split over time (and have for many houses). But usually, you'll get the virtue your parens associates with their lineage. In general, this is just an abstract representation of what you pick up about your parens' approach to magic as you train with them (or it's what you get initiated into in the case of the mystery cults).
So Carem's approach to magic is tinted through the lens of her Auram, and that's likely to rub off on any of her apprentices. If she has other virtues that are similarly representative of how she works her magic, those could potentially rub off on her apprentice instead.
I think generally your free virtue has to match your parens house virtue unless the parens has both virtues and chooses to emphasize the other one. I could be wrong, and clearly there have to be ways to get a different house virtue or there would be no options, everyone would have puissant magic theory because that is what Bonisagus had.
I wouldn't say that Flambeau had Puissant Auram, that doesn't fit. But, most likely the person who founded Carmen's line had Puissant Ignem or Perdo taught by Flambeau and ALSO had Puissant Auram, and chose to pass the Puissant Auram down to his apprentices. As the others mentioned, if Carmen happened to ALSO have Puissant Ignem and Perdo, he could choose which free virtue to pass down.
I understand your annoyance, but this doesn't actually preclude you taking Puissant Ignem, it just means you'd have to use one of your 10 virtue points on it (perhaps replacing Skilled Parens). It would also make for some interesting roleplay, as he chafes againsts Carmen's teaching somewhat as he tries to focus on Ignem. It could also make for an interesting casting style. While most Ignem magi tend to focus on Creo to create fireballs and things, he could instead add Muto to his Auram and Ignem to "create" fire by changing air to fire. I'm not sure that gives you any advantage or disadvantage, but could be interesting.
At present I can't accept that the raw makes sense. The justifications are for a rule which does not make sense across the population of the Order.
Anyway, it'll work out one way or another.
I just checked in Apprentices yesterday (p 42, I think), and Prince of Boredom is right. You have to have the House Virtue that your parens has. But if they have more than one of the possible House Virtues (e.g., they took it as one of their 10 points of Virtues), they can choose which one to pass on. So somewhere down the line, a Bonisagus magus had both Puissant Magic Theory and Puissant Intrigue and decided to pass along Puissant Intrigue to his apprentice.
Carmen can have conflict with Lucien without needing to have a useless Virtue. I'll think about what this means.
Mm~ the Bonisagus example is really why the rule is a bit strange and nonsensical. For Bonisagus, you get Puissant MT for being descended from Bonisagus himself. You get Puissant Intrigue for being descended from Trionoma (Bonisagus' notional apprentice).
For the Mecere, Mutantes Magic is called out as something you can pick up for your house virtue if that's your lineage (and it's an invented one that came much later than the founder). And for Flmabeau, every combat style in Societeas has an associated virtue that you might get from your parens (instead of the usual Ignem or Perdo) - i.e. I am Flambeau, and this is how I killed people best, so this is how you'll learn to kill people best (be that Ignem, Perdo or 1m of cold steel and a strong sword-arm).
At the end of the day, the house virtue is either something you get from being exposed to your parens while they're showing you the ropes, or something you get specifically initiated into. So it's really on Carem and what she'd push for.
Well, why don't we start with the fact that Trianomae was not Bonisagus' apprentice first. She was a fully fledged magus (of course not hermetic) and he just taught her how to incorporate hermetic magic into her own magic. In fact, she seems to be treated almost like one of the founders. So she is an anomaly, much like all of the House Founders.
It seems to make sense to me that while magi might create new lineages/fighting styles/etc. those magi probably had their parens' "free" virtue, and just picked up another virtue and changed their style. So the founder of each of the Flambeau styles had Puissant Ignem or Perdo (as a free vritue from the their Parens), but then chose to go a different route and developed a new style that they then taught to their apprentices. So Carmen was taught Puissant Auram from her Parens, but could have chosen (or had a natural predilection) to learn Puissant Ignem as well, and could have then passed it down to her apprentice. She didn't, so the "free" house virtue she would pass down in Puissant Auram.
She can't "show the ropes" of puissant Ignem, because she doesn't have it. She can teach the Ignem art, but being puissant in it is a different thing.
- All of the Founders, including Trianoma, were already wizards when Bonisagus invented universal Magic Theory
- Carmen was an apprentice in 4th edition, when none of these rules applied. She was recreated for ArM5 before Apprentices.
- Recreated Antonio did have Puissand Ignem as his House Virtue, but he did pick up Puissant Auram. The original ArM4 Antonio had both as Afinity Talents from Gauntlet (different rules back then)
- All of my Senecan Flambeau magi, including Carmen and Roberto, have Puissant Creo in common. Lineage of Delendos.
- The rule in apprentices makes no sense with House Flambeau. Societates has it set up so that virtually any Minor Virtue can be the free House VIrtue. There is a line descended from a Tremere that teaches Warrior, not a Certamen focus.
- I would prefer if we use Apprentices as a guide instead of absolute rule.
- Carmen does not need Teaching. She will pick it up from Exposure.
- Mythic Blood, well, I was going to reveal it couldn't actually be Flambeau yet still play with it. Mythic Blood-Lumina has creating fire as a focus and creating light as the mythic power. Says so in Sub Rosa.
- I think if we all tone down our ambition, we can make thins simpler
- I didn't catch that. Then Carmen would be able to pass Puissant Creo on as the "free virtue" as well.
- I completely disagree. It's true that many (i wouldn't say any) minor virtue can be passed, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the Parens should have the minor virtue being passed down. Otherwise it's not "actually" being "passed down". The rules in Apprentices absolutely support this. They simply mean that someone with mMF Aging can't "pass down" mMF "Birds of Prey" because it MAKES NO SENSE, There is nothing precluding an Apprentice from spending his/her 10 virtue points on other virtues, but the "free" one should be one that the Parens has, AND (in my opinion) makes sense for the House.
- It's absolutely true that Carmen doesn't need Teaching, but she'll be generating a very low source quality without it.
Keep in mind that I don't have that book, and the full context prbaby makes more sense. Also, I did prmise to let others rule when I am playing a character. Rereading your poost and reply, it makes much more sense.
So Puissant Creo works. It fits my vision.
As for Teaching, she will get better because of this experience I am sure. Lucien may not seem to keep pace at first, but there will be a curve. She also intends on making use of the Mentor tradition of the Senecans. That will help until she can catch up.
And she will ask Vocis to equip the Master's Library with boks on Teaching (he in turn passes the buck to Fleur or Lucas or Fredrika).
Lucas is going on two trips through neighboring tribunals over the leap, trading books. That might be a good time to try and get a book on Teaching.
But why for the Master's library? Isn't that something that everyone could benefit from? The Masters already have precedence in requesting books.
A book on teaching should be something we can get scribed from a mundane place of education too. No need to dance around with hermetic politics.
Speaking of Mentors, I think you'd mention before about Lucian taking the Mentor flaw with Roberto as his mentor. The rules are pretty clear that to take the flaw the Mentor must be an NPC. Roberto could absolutely serve as a mentor, you just couldn't count him as a story flaw since he's a PC.
I was just thinking in character. Certainly such would be good for all, and there iss no Master's Library currently. Carmen is just tossing out words while living in the past.
I also brushed up on the Sub Rosa bit on the Knights of Seneca. That author is a hack. Anyway, it seems the Senecans have two new choices of Free House Virtues. School of Delendos is Puissant Creo, and School of Julius is Skilled Parens (tied into Mentor I think). Ability Virtues make no sense in the context of an Apprentice, but Puissant Creo seems right on the money. And with Creo, the concept goes beyond offensive conjurations. It also includes logistis, logistics, and logistics.