Magic Bottle

[orneen (MONTBILLIARD)]

I search to know how to create a magic bottle that take his water in a mountain source.

I think to take a rego aquam spell but what the base level ?

(Sorry for my english but i'm not good. I'm french.)

[Tellus]

If I understand correctly, you wish to create a bottle that automagically refills itself from a specific mountain source, correct?

Also, welcome, and nice to see new people with interesting questions

[orneen (MONTBILLIARD)]

Yes, is the idea

[Jank (Medusa)]

So the easiest way would be CrAq, but that would not be from a specific source. Then you'd be looking at some kind of ReAq to bring the water from the source to the bottle which becomes more complicated.

@orneen

I'm french.)

That and "MONTBILLIARD" makes me think of quality smoked sausage...

[John_Prins]

Most of the guidelines for magical transportation are found in Transforming Mythic Europe, pg 107. For Aquam, Base 4 transports water 5 paces, and +5 Magnitudes to transport it to Arcane Connection range, so Base25 to transport water to Arcane Connection. Your device also needs to have Range: Arcane Connection (+4 Magnitudes) as well as Target: Part (+1 Magnitude), because you want to transport part of the water from the source, not all of it - just enough to fill the bottle. This brings the Enchantment level to 50, plus however many uses per day it needs. This isn't powerful enough to require a ritual effect, despite its level, so it still may be enchanted into a device.

You will need an Arcane Connection to the target water source. Water doesn't last long as an Arcane Connection so you may have to make a fixed Arcane Connection, though a pebble from the source MAY act as a longer Arcane Connection, though you'll have to periodically get new pebbles.

[OneShot]

@Tellus

If I understand correctly, you wish to create a bottle that automagically refills itself from a specific mountain source, correct?

The guideline for this is in Transforming Mythic Europe p.108 box (plus Errata).

You wish to teleport water (ReAq) to your bottle from a place you have an Arcane Connection to. That is a base level of 25 (transport water over any distance), a Range of Arcane Connection (+4 magnitudes) to the water, a Target of Individual (+0), and a Duration of Momentary (+0).
So the effect level is 45 without uses/day and modifications: pretty extreme indeed.

Welcome to the forum, Montbilliard!

[Euphemism]

@John_Prins

You will need an Arcane Connection to the target water source. Water doesn't last long as an Arcane Connection so you may have to make a fixed Arcane Connection, though a pebble from the source MAY act as a longer Arcane Connection, though you'll have to periodically get new pebbles.

You beat me to it @John_Prins. Although I think it could work to make a fixed arcane connection to the source.

[OneShot]

@Euphemism

You beat me to it @John_Prins. Although I think it could work to make a fixed arcane connection to the source.

Me too!

[John_Prins]

@Euphemism

You will need an Arcane Connection to the target water source. Water doesn't last long as an Arcane Connection so you may have to make a fixed Arcane Connection, though a pebble from the source MAY act as a longer Arcane Connection, though you'll have to periodically get new pebbles.

You beat me to it @John_Prins. Although I think it could work to make a fixed arcane connection to the source.

I covered that. Fixed ACs take a lot of time for little reward, so I try to look for options that don't require them. A rock from a place can last for years, which 'should' be good enough for most uses. I assume the water source is somewhere reasonably close to where the magus lives and that they can visit it casually once a year. If you want to travel far away for years, or just love the taste of the water from a specific spring and always want access to it, certainly spend the time and vis to make a fixed AC.

[OneShot]

@John_Prins

Fixed ACs take a lot of time for little reward, so I try to look for options that don't require them. A rock from a place can last for years, which 'should' be good enough for most uses.

This might also be useful to avoid Target Part of the effect, by maintaining a cavity near the source to define the Target Individual to teleport into the bottle.

[orneen (MONTBILLIARD)]

Thanks all. My fear are confirmed, this spell his very difficult to create.

[John_Prins]

Hire a Verditus, or seek a Lab Text of someone who's done it before.

[John_Prins]

@OneShot

This might also be useful to avoid Target Part of the effect, by maintaining a cavity near the source to define the Target Individual to teleport into the bottle.

This would work, yes.

[ezzelino]

As has been mentioned, it's a fairly high level ReAq effect because it needs to a) transport water a long distance and b) get that water from Arcane Connection range. But if you are willing to split the effect into two parts, it gets easier. You can lower b) from R:Arc to R:Touch, saving three magnitudes, by enchanting in the bottle an effect that opens an Intangible Tunnel to your water source. Since you would probably want to visit the water source once in any case, you can make the Intangible Tunnel at R:Touch. As follows:

Tie Water Knot -- ReVi29
Refilling your magical bottle at a water source at dawn or dusk creates and maintains an Intangible Tunnel to that source through which any effect up to Level 35(=10+5x5) can be cast.
Base 10, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +4 Levels Environmental Trigger & 2 uses/day

Refill the mystical Container -- ReAq45
A particular word of command refills the magical water bottle from the source it has tied its water knot to.
Base 25, +1 Touch, +1Part, +10Levels Unlimited uses (note that although the enchantment is level 45, a single casting is only level 35, so it can pass through the Invisible Tunnel created by the Knot).

In our saga, a powerful alpine covenant close to a pristine spring of water has enchanted that spring so that any vessel that contains even a few drops of water from it, will be constantly refilled to the brim. Redcaps, Quaesitores and allies of the covenant are allowed to freely draw the water from the spring; the covenant maintains that it's a magical resource, so drawing it without their permission is punishable under the Oath (a position supported by the Quaesitores).
It's a Re(In)Aq 50 effect, that works as Refill the Mystical Container, above, except that it has an Intellego requisite (+1 magnitude) allowing it to sense whether any water it adds would overflow. It adds water to any ... water it has a connection to. And we ruled that the spring has an arcane connection to any water drawn from it.

I do think it's a bit iffy rulewise! But a very slight modification would make it less ... controversial. Assume that in order to "magic up" a bottle or other container at the well you have to break off a little piece of it (arcane connection!) and throw it into the well. Now, the enchanted spring has an arcane connection to the container. It's an InAq effect to detect if a container is full of water or not (and how much is "missing"), so the Re(In)Aq effect fills a container with water up to its capacity. Or you could simply say that filling a container to capacity with water taken from somewhere else is just ReAq, no Intellego requisite needed, in that "filling" is a "platonic ideal" application of Rego. This would drop the requisite, and consequently a magnitude too, and is the interpretation I'd probably favour.

Note that the huge advantage of this well is that, although it's still a very high level enchantment, it effectively "creates" an unlimited number of magical, self-refilling bottles.

[Salutor]

Drawing water from clouds is an alternative option that lowers the difficulty to Base 10 + 3 Sight + 2 Group = 35 + Uses per day (although it does require clouds to be present). This is noted (HoH: TL pg 132) as being a popular item amongst the Tremere, so there are probably labtexts available.

[OneShot]

@ezzelino

Tie Water Knot -- ReVi29
Refilling your magical bottle at a water source at dawn or dusk creates and maintains an Intangible Tunnel to that source through which any effect up to Level 35(=10+5x5) can be cast.
Base 10, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +4 Levels Environmental Trigger & 2 uses/day

This effect is dubious, because its R: Touch does generally not apply any more, when the ArM5 p.99 Environmental Trigger causes a recast.

Such a problem was addressed on this Forum before by @David_Chart:

@David_Chart

Feels like we have strayed a bit from the original post.

We know that when an object maintains concentration for you, that you still need to concentrate at sunrise/sunset to maintain the effect. This is another situation where I find myself unclear as to if the target needs to be in range for the effect to be maintained or not?

Another way to ask the question is: Do constant effects need to remain in range to be constant?

I would say yes. The item is maintaining the effect, so the target needs to be within range. It isn't a permanent duration effect originating from the device, but it is a single effect. The only way to cancel the effect, other than PeVi, would seem to be to move the device out of range and wait for sunrise/set.

One reason for doing constant as 2/day, environmental trigger, Sun, is that it means you cannot have a device with unlimited use constant effects in them. A constant effect can only affect one target at a time. (That means that the design in the first post won't work.)

This may not be entirely consistent throughout the line, because I don't think anyone has asked the question exactly this way before.

[ezzelino]

@OneShot

@ezzelino

Tie Water Knot -- ReVi29
Refilling your magical bottle at a water source at dawn or dusk creates and maintains an Intangible Tunnel to that source through which any effect up to Level 35(=10+5x5) can be cast.
Base 10, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +4 Levels Environmental Trigger & 2 uses/day

This effect is dubious, because its R: Touch does generally not apply any more, when the ArM5 p.99 Environmental Trigger causes a recast.

Such a problem was addressed on this Forum before by @David_Chart:

Hmm. Interesting. We have always assumed that "constant" effects were really constant, and the D:Sun+2/day+environmental trigger was just the "mechanical" way to represent it.

That said, note that once the Invisible Tunnel is cast the first time, the bottle is in Touch range with the target spring ... so it can recast the Tunnel at R:Touch It's crucial to observe that since such "constant" effects explicitly have no "discontinuity" or "flicker" at dawn or dusk, they have their "new" instance at dawn/dusk already recast at the instant the "old" one expires ... thus the "old" Tunnel is still in effect until the "new" one takes effect, so the "new" one can be channeled through the "old" one.

[OneShot]

@ezzelino

It's crucial to observe that since such "constant" effects explicitly have no "discontinuity" or "flicker" at dawn or dusk, they have their "new" instance at dawn/dusk already recast at the instant the "old" one expires ... thus the "old" Tunnel is still in effect until the "new" one takes effect, so the "new" one can be channeled through the "old" one.

This is verrry creative: I'd recommend to discuss this with your troupe.

[BrutusExVerditius (Leon Bullock)]

Hi guys (sorry this is a little old),
Why not turn the question around? Make a pair of linked containers, water from one is transferred to the other. Just put the first container at the bottom of the river then carry the other one with you.
This gets around the whole AC range and makes the enchantment a straight base 25 + uses and penetration.
If you want you can put an InAq with a linking effect to send as much was as is needed.

Measure the free volume
In(Re)Aq 35
Monitor the container at AC range to see how much water is in it, move water in or out of this local container so that both volumes add up to a single container worth. (so that when it is teleported to the destination the destination will become full but not spill)
base 3, +1 Conc, +4 AC; +5 levels Item maintains con, +10 levels unlimited uses

Fill the distant container
ReAq 35
Teleport the contents of this container to the distant AC
base 25; +10 unlimited uses

If you just want one use per day you can easily drop these levels down to 25 each.

Two level 25 enchantments in a container is a lot easier than a single lvl 45 one. If you lose your container on an adventure you can easily change the AC in the container in the river. You just need to make sure no-one steals that one!